Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Havenchild]

A bad dps or tank can wipe your raid entirely too though. All it takes is one tank mis-positioning and cleaving the entire raid team to kill everyone. In savage, just one mistake from anyone can wipe the whole group. This whole argument of healers wiping raids consistently is heavily flawed.

True but in a very skewed context. Your counter point is in an enviorment where all roles and handling of mechanics is balanced against each other as all are subjected to the same context.

Let's analyze:

DPS - Primarily responsible for doing damage. A bad player on this role, while still performing all mechanics 100%, could contribute to failing a DPS check. A single bad player is directly mitigated by the gearing on the rest of the party. A bad DPS that is mechanically sound, can still clear the fight if everyone else is good or better.
Tank - Primarily responsible for holding aggro and positioning and mitigation. A bad player in this role, can have a cleave shoot unexpectantly however most TB's hit one tank at a time usually in frontal cleaves or on the MT. There are cases like P3S tethers that go wary but this is easily resolved by strategy (party stacking south). Bad mitigation can be offset, by proper shielding from healers in most cases, and almost all TB's can be face tanked as Tank ilvl improves.

Healer - Primarily responsible for keeping people alive. A bad player in this role, will result in inefficient healing that can directly lead to death of raid or persons within it, while also reducing raid DPS due to ress sickness. This includes healing + shielding on MT / OT and AoE Raid healing and mitigation on party. Mismanagement of cds here has more direct consequences of life and death of a raid, especially when more consistent AoEs (ie. Curtain Call) or P3S (Power Healing / Mitigation) is needed.

No other role has more responsibility than a healer. You can save a run with a bad DPS even one mechanically sound. You can save a run with a bad tank (low DPS? / Poor Mitigation) that is mechanically sound. You can RARELY save a run with a bad healer that is mechanically sound unless the other healer is way better at adjusting and carrying the weight and suprise surprise, prioritizing the healing.

PF already proves this daily. That is only referencing Savage + Ultimate content.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I meant just a few examples i can think of that require enough dps to be alive in normal content are the first nier raid where people need to stand in puddles. The second nier raid with the same mechanic. Then of course there’s dps checks in various normal context etc etc. There’s many ways a dps or tank can wipe the party, just as much if not more than a healer can. Dps now have a plethora of healing abilities and same with a couple of the tanks.

Thats true and I understand that but in regular content where most people run dailies, you wont necessarily run into wipes because a dps or two died. In fact I see this happen often and we still get clears in them, even in normal dps checks.

Its really just only for savage and extreme raids where everyone is responsible to not mess up the slightest, where all roles have equal amount of responsibility....actually thats a lie, DPS have more responsibility in them as they're needed to do mechanics properly to not risk full party wipe and clear the enrage timer. And I dont think a major portion of this community run that sort of content where they will find those issues. There's a clear player base for hardcore content but its not a dominating factor of this game imo.

[KizuyaKatogami]

True but in a very skewed context. Your counter point is in an enviorment where all roles and handling of mechanics is balanced against each other as all are subjected to the same context.

Let's analyze:

DPS - Primarily responsible for doing damage. A bad player on this role, while still performing all mechanics 100%, could contribute to failing a DPS check. A single bad player is directly mitigated by the gearing on the rest of the party. A bad DPS that is mechanically sound, can still clear the fight if everyone else is good or better.
Tank - Primarily responsible for holding aggro and positioning. A bad player in this role, can have a cleave shoot unexpectantly however most TB's hit one tank at a time usually in frontal cleaves or on the MT. There are cases like P3S tethers that go wary but this is easily resolved by strategy (party stacking south)
Healer - Primarily responsible for keeping people alive. A bad player in this role, will result in inefficient healing that can directly lead to death of raid or persons within it, while also reducing raid DPS due to ress sickness. This includes healing + shielding on MT / OT and AoE Raid healing and mitigation on party. Mismanagement of cds here has more direct consequences of life and death of a raid, especially when more consistent AoEs (ie. Curtain Call) or P3S (Power Healing / Mitigation) is needed.

No other role has more responsibility than a healer. You can save a run with a bad DPS even one mechanically sound. You can save a run with a bad tank (low DPS?) that is mechanically sound. You can RARELY save a run with a bad healer that is mechanically sound unless the other healer is way better at adjusting and carrying the weight and suprise surprise, prioritizing the healing.

PF already proves this daily. That is only referencing Savage + Ultimate content.

This is heavily biased and skewed though. You can argue a tank not properly using their cd’s well can result in them dying no matter what the healers do, and then it’s a wipe. A dps not being properly geared or not knowing their job can yes, result in not meeting a dps check and wiping the party, and this was a very prevalent problem for Titania. Many tankbusters nowadays are aoe, but even disregarding that, a tank is who holds aggro and has to properly mitigate lest they get one shot and then the entire party dies. At the very least, all roles responsibility is equal. Warriors can heal a shit ton now, same with paladins. Smn,Reaper,Dancer etc etc all have heals and rdm and smn even have rezzes that can pick up the slack for a healer.

[Havenchild]

This is heavily biased and skewed though. You can argue a tank not properly using their cd’s well can result in them dying no matter what the healers do, and then it’s a wipe. A dps not being properly geared or not knowing their job can yes, result in not meeting a dps check and wiping the party, and this was a very prevalent problem for Titania. Many tankbusters nowadays are aoe, but even disregarding that, a tank is who holds aggro and has to properly mitigate lest they get one shot and then the entire party dies. At the very least, all roles responsibility is equal. Warriors can heal a shit ton now, same with paladins. Smn,Reaper,Dancer etc etc all have heals and rdm and smn even have rezzes that can pick up the slack for a healer.

You seem to be missing my point entirely or are willfully being ignorant.

Example: Curtain Call

You can survive and clear the raid with a DPS dropping mid mechanic but having high enough raid DPS. Higher ilvl in the party overall reduces the stress a DPS death will apply here.
You can survive said same mechanic with a tank dropping mid mechanic. Higher ilvl reduces party stress the same way as a DPS would.
You have a much higher chance of NOT surviving said mechanic with a healer going down here because you will not have enough healing for the raid to survive and a just ressed healer has essentially no MP (or very little), Gearing barely influences the surviving healers capability here nor the recovering healers lack of MP.

Use P3S for your tank example, if a Tank goes down, but they were popping mitigation, whose fault is it? Likely Healer.
If a tank goes down and they weren't popping mitigation, can the fight still be recovered? Depends on where the death occured but it's not an automatic wipe if it was the basic TB, especially if the healers can keep the DPS with aggro up till the tank ressurects.

P2S a DPS down on 3rd Convergence doesn't really affect the survivabilty of the raid (albeit 2 will die).
- A Tank going down during Convergence DOES directly affect the survivability of the raid.
- A Healer down during Convergence almost directly affects the survivability of the raid much in the way the tank does.

Almost every major mechanic in savage has a heal component that if a healer goes down, can automatically wipe the raid purely from a lack of healing perspective, not even directly failing a mechanic that directly causes a wipe.

Henceforth, NO other role has more responsibility than a Healer. Until you, I have never seen a Healer main actually claim that DPS and Tank roles have the same responsibilty levels.

I'll concede when TP was a thing, and Tanks actually had aggro rotations, both had far more responsibilties to manage on par with healers. But since SB? Nah you can pass me with that.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I kinda hate how many of the people shouting about "healing is easy and boring" is that they actively ignore the many players in this game that struggle with managing heals during normal content. Its not as blatant in 8-man or 24-man stuff because of the fact that you have co-healers to synergize with when things get bad as well as other alliance healers who can spare a rez or two.

If they’re truly ignoring the underperforming healers, then they would’ve constantly asking for healing requirements to he increased. But are they really?

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

I’ve already given you numerous examples. It’s not me being “ willfully ignorant”, let’s cut it with the snark alright? I don’t see the need to try to ego boost anything. Healers,dps,tanks, they all have their roles to play equally, they’re all equally important. I’m sorry, but the days where a healer is incredibly necessary is over. That’s not to say they aren’t needed, and that’s not to say deaths can’t be attributed to bad healers, but to the extent you’re making it sound is just false.

A dps dying on convergence in a week 1 raiding scenario could very well mean a wipe to enrage.

A tank going down during convergence could mean the stack or line marker hitting the wrong area and causing a wipe. A healing going down during this would mean at the most, dps need to use more mitigation for that run and the healer just needs to properly mitigate and heal more, entirely doable and something i’ve experienced myself. Almost every mechanic in savage period has a component where if anyone dies, it can cause a wipe. This isn’t a healer only issue lol. Either way this is completely derailing from the point of this thread. Bottom line, healers are beyond gutted and ignored by the devs. Responsibility has nothing to do with this argument whatsoever, unless someone is trying to argue that healers shouldn’t get more dps options because it would make them stop healing, in which case i’d rather not debate with someone with that kind of flawed thinking.

It can be argued with a higher Ilvl a healers death is also less impact because the party can take more damage than normal, the remaining healer can heal more than normal, the tanks can take more damage and depending on which tanks, can heal more as well. Same with the dps. Again, it goes both ways…or triple ways i guess.

[Absurdity]

You seem to be missing my point entirely or are willfully being ignorant.

Example: Curtain Call

You can survive and clear the raid with a DPS dropping mid mechanic but having high enough raid DPS. Higher ilvl in the party overall reduces the stress a DPS death will apply here.
You can survive said same mechanic with a tank dropping mid mechanic. Higher ilvl reduces party stress the same way as a DPS would.
You have a much higher chance of NOT surviving said mechanic with a healer going down here because you will not have enough healing for the raid to survive and a just ressed healer has essentially no MP (or very little), Gearing barely influences the surviving healers capability here nor the recovering healers lack of MP.

Curtain Call is a rather bad example because sure, the healing check for that mechanic is pretty high...but so is the responsibility on literally everyone else in the party.

DPS and Tanks not properly mitigating the tether explosions? You're going to quickly exhaust your healing resources and wipe.
People being too late on breaking their tether? Everything gets desynced and unless everyone else adjusts to it you will have 2 tethers go off almost back-to-back and it becomes unhealable.
People not dodging the flamethrower? Not too much of an issue for tanks but a dps is very likely to drop dead if a tether goes off at the same time and if that dps still had a tether it's a wipe.

Whether or not a dead healer right before the mechanic becomes a problem also heavily depends on the healer's job. Sage has basically 0 MP issues even if they just got raised, the same goes for Astrologian.


If Curtain Call would only test a healer's primary function, the ability to heal, it would also be a joke. The mechanics leading up to it don't actually do a lot of damage so you have a vast amount of tools available to get the party up before the next spike of damage every 6 seconds.

Use P3S for your tank example, if a Tank goes down, but they were popping mitigation, whose fault is it? Likely Healer.

Yes and no. Not all mechanics hit for the same amount of damage, sometimes even the exact same tank buster can be deadlier later in a fight due to the mechanics leading up to it. It is a tank's job to figure out the proper mitigation to use for every mechanic that requires it.

Sometimes a tank dying with mitigation isn't the healer's fault, it just means the tank used the wrong mitigation for it.

[Havenchild]

A dps dying on convergence in a week 1 raiding scenario could very well mean a wipe to enrage.

A tank going down during convergence could mean the stack or line marker hitting the wrong area and causing a wipe. A healing going down during this would mean at the most, dps need to use more mitigation for that run and the healer just needs to properly mitigate and heal more, entirely doable and something i’ve experienced myself. Almost every mechanic in savage period has a component where if anyone dies, it can cause a wipe. This isn’t a healer only issue lol. Either way this is completely derailing from the point of this thread. Bottom line, healers are beyond gutted and ignored by the devs. Responsibility has nothing to do with this argument whatsoever, unless someone is trying to argue that healers shouldn’t get more dps options because it would make them stop healing, in which case i’d rather not debate with someone with that kind of flawed thinking.

You literally repeated everything I said, but tried to change a word or two different to make it sound like you had a different point.

You skew to:

A DPS dying week 1 - Why use this example, when I literally stated as gearing of the whole party improves, this almost doesn't matter at later points (DPS Check Enrage Context only).
A Tank going down?

I literally stated:

- A Tank going down during Convergence DOES directly affect the survivability of the raid.

Same with a healer:

- A Healer down during Convergence almost directly affects the survivability of the raid much in the way the tank does.

Are you even reading anymore?

But there are alot of mechanics, which of course you ignored, where a death on a healer specifically is far more critical.

Also it's NOT an irrelevant conversation point and that is the part you and many others on this thread are failing to understand. The perception of healing by the masses seems to be leaning towards either complexity, or too much responsibility. This is proven again both by PF (lack of healers) and the consistent and considerable amount of feedback they have had from players (forums) and likely data on their end which they themselves have voiced, in terms of play rates of the roles. These things fuel literally every balance patch they have had since HW and if you were around long enough (not sure based on your join date), you would know this to be true.

Players have consistently clamoured for less button bloat and management on healers. That sentiment is far more prevalent in the player base than not. It's why AST Cards were changed, it's why WHM / SCH lost Cleric Stance, its why SCH lost Miasma, Miasma 2 / Bane etc.
The vocal minority on these forums, in this thread, pales in comparison. You can have your opinions on what you think is a better way forward, but realistically that's not what I'd imagine the data is showing is the right direction.

SGE is the closest we'll probably get to slightly more complex healer and I'm willing to bet, without a shadow of a doubt, that it will lose some complexity in 7.0.

[Havenchild]

Curtain Call is a rather bad example because sure, the healing check for that mechanic is pretty high...but so is the responsibility on literally everyone else in the party.

DPS and Tanks not properly mitigating the tether explosions? You're going to quickly exhaust your healing resources and wipe.
People being too late on breaking their tether? Everything gets desynced and unless everyone else adjusts to it you will have 2 tethers go off almost back-to-back and it becomes unhealable.
People not dodging the flamethrower? Not too much of an issue for tanks but a dps is very likely to drop dead if a tether goes off at the same time and if that dps still had a tether it's a wipe.

Whether or not a dead healer right before the mechanic becomes a problem also heavily depends on the healer's job. Sage has basically 0 MP issues even if they just got raised, the same goes for Astrologian.


If Curtain Call would only test a healer's primary function, the ability to heal, it would also be a joke. The mechanics leading up to it don't actually do a lot of damage so you have a vast amount of tools available to get the party up before the next spike of damage every 6 seconds.

If everyone does everything mechanically right, and someone dies, it's the healers fault. That is objective fact which can either be due to a lack of healing or a poorly timed heal.
I use Curtain Call as an example, of a situation where you can survive the mechanic (and complete the fight ) if a DPS or Tank drops and high enough raid DPS exists assuming everything else is mechanically sound. Sometimes due to server tick for example, a person can die cause the heal didn't hit in time when the tether had to go off. We've all seen these situations but this is not a guarantee death of the raid.

A healer however dying in a mechanic like this, where it is heavy healer reliant can almost reliably kill the raid there and then but I digress there are few times where it can still be recovered but let's not act like that's common occurence.

My point in that example was purely that if everyone else is playing perfectly, a bad healer who is not managing cds correctly (or dies) during such a mech is far more condusive to a wipe than a DPS or Tank missing a Reprisal or Addle. You can absolutely outheal the tether explosions with a lack of some mitigation from DPS / Tanks. Again PF is the best sample size I can give for this, where almost NO DPS mitigates without being told to and tanks barely Reprisal.

Thus the responsibility on a healer, perspectively, is definitely still higher. Even ilvl 580 - > 600 barely has influence on a healers ability to save a raid during these moments if the other healer goes down.

[Absurdity]

Also it's NOT an irrelevant conversation point and that is the part you and many others on this thread are failing to understand. The perception of healing by the masses seems to be leaning towards either complexity, or too much responsibility. This is proven again both by PF (lack of healers) and the consistent and considerable about of feedback they have had from players (forums) and likely data on their end which they themselves have voiced, in terms of play rates of the roles. These things fuel literally every balance patch they have had since HW and if you were around long enough (not sure based on your join date), you would know this to be true.

The lack of healers in PF can just as easily be explained by the role being incredibly boring to play. Healers are essentially the exact same as they were in ShB but we're still seeing a decline compared to last expansion despite the lack of additional complexity or responsibility.


I also highly doubt that SE's data shows them why people aren't playing the role, only that it's declining. Whether or not that is because the average player considers it "too hard" or "too boring" is really anyone's guess.

The only clearly visible feedback we have as to why people don't want to play healer anymore is from healer mains in this forum, of which the vast majority considers the role to be a mess with boring gameplay and no clear vision behind it's design.