Trick Attack

[Manofpassion]

Your mad bro? You seem triggered. You’re also throwing out ad hominem’s. The game’s design has evolved since HW my guy. Forcing a job to rely so much on another’s maximizing (in a game with tons of really bad players) is poor design.

Buffs bad, we get it

[Kazimere]

“Hey, we don't like how you're making our unique raidbuff into 2 minutes like everything else”

“Lmao big deal, cope"

Truly a big brained take. If people play Ninja just because they like inputting pin codes to do their mudras, and that's what draw people in, i will be very surprised. Remembering a combination code is hardly engaging dps gameplay. This isn't like street fighter where we have to do a 20 hit combo, we're pressing 3 buttons at most. I'm actually pretty sure this guy is a troll. Either that or a professional square bootlicker

Remembering to use TA ever minute is hardly engaging gameplay either. Is TA going away entirely? No, it is not. So please, tell me how you are losing your ability to buff the party, since your whole argument seems to be centered around your enjoyment from buffing the party.

[Manofpassion]

We get it, buffs bad. Enjoying things is bad. Personal dps is good. Enjoying having a unique minute long buff is wrongthink. Benefitting the party in unique odd minute bursts is bad. Yoshida knows best. Boring balance good.

[aloneatsea]

I think the discussion has moved on a bit here, so I'd like to rein it in a bit back to the topic at hand -- being concerned about the state of Trick. There also seems to be a lot of talk about numbers and relative strength, which I think is completely irrelevant until we have raw potencies. There's no point in speculating on something like that when potencies can be easily changed -- see the vast difference the changes in 6.08 made to Ninja's overall strength, going from one of the weakest melee to one of the strongest.



As I understand it, this is about disappointment in the ideological shift of Ninja -- which has historically been a one-minute based job, with a mtaching party buff -- losing its identity as the one-minute party buff job. I think there is massive value in bringing a Ninja to a party as it stands -- they provide a buff to play into for jobs that have burst outside of two-minute windows. Gunbreaker, Dark Knight, Reaper, Red Mage, the list goes on. If players are able to optimise their rotations to make use of Trick, they should be rewarded for it -- and they are! Removing this kind of synergy seems nonsensical to me, when the listed reason for the change is to increase synergy with other jobs.


That reason also makes no sense, given that 60 seconds is simply half of 120s. 1 minute is half of 2 minutes. There's no missing synergy between a 2 minute-buff and a 1-minute buff, as the 1-minute buff will always be available when the 2-minute buff is.

[Manofpassion]

Precisely. Ninja's ideology has always set it apart, and for better or worse, people just like thinking and playing jobs they find to be different or unique. As far as I am aware, there is no other minute based job in the game, and making mug our raid buff just removes our niche. Whether how much this niche is worth is debatable, but I enjoy playing a class that brings something no other class can do. I haven't spent too long thinking about it, but I can't think of any other real niches that is occupied by just one class. Perhaps macrocosmos? But that's not nearly as integral to astro as it is to ninja I think.

[Kazimere]

I think the discussion has moved on a bit here, so I'd like to rein it in a bit back to the topic at hand -- being concerned about the state of Trick. There also seems to be a lot of talk about numbers and relative strength, which I think is completely irrelevant until we have raw potencies. There's no point in speculating on something like that when potencies can be easily changed -- see the vast difference the changes in 6.08 made to Ninja's overall strength, going from one of the weakest melee to one of the strongest.



As I understand it, this is about disappointment in the ideological shift of Ninja -- which has historically been a one-minute based job, with a mtaching party buff -- losing its identity as the one-minute party buff job. I think there is massive value in bringing a Ninja to a party as it stands -- they provide a buff to play into for jobs that have burst outside of two-minute windows. Gunbreaker, Dark Knight, Reaper, Red Mage, the list goes on. If players are able to optimise their rotations to make use of Trick, they should be rewarded for it -- and they are! Removing this kind of synergy seems nonsensical to me, when the listed reason for the change is to increase synergy with other jobs.


That reason also makes no sense, given that 60 seconds is simply half of 120s. 1 minute is half of 2 minutes. There's no missing synergy between a 2 minute-buff and a 1-minute buff, as the 1-minute buff will always be available when the 2-minute buff is.

Well, the ninja is rewarded for their maximization. Not the person who maximized the buff. I don't agree with that, but it is what it is. On the flip side, the ninja is punished if their buffs aren't maximized, which isn't their fault. They did their job. I don't agree with that either.

If it's a game play feel issue, I can get on board with that, as I do enjoy reworking my off minute enshroud when partied with a ninja. However, I would recommend advocating for keeping TA at 60s, weakening it's contribution, and giving the loss damage back to the Ninja's personal DPS. To me, this is what the developers are trying to do with this change.

[aloneatsea]

Well, the ninja is rewarded for their maximization. Not the person who maximized the buff. I don't agree with that, but it is what it is. On the flip side, the ninja is punished if their buffs aren't maximized, which isn't their fault. They did their job. I don't agree with that either.

If it's a game play feel issue, I can get on board with that, as I do enjoy reworking my off minute enshroud when partied with a ninja. However, I would recommend advocating for keeping TA at 60s, weakening it's contribution, and giving the loss damage back to the Ninja's personal DPS. To me, this is what the developers are trying to do with this change.

I don't understand what you mean by the Ninja being rewarded. The enemy dies more quickly, so the whole party is rewarded? Similarly, the whole party is punished if their buffs aren't maximised, as the boss will die more slowly. This is true of any buff in the game.

At least for me, however, it is definitely a gameplay feel and identity issue at it's core. If what it took to keep Trick Attack as the 1 minute party buff was to concede to a lower overall buff, such a 3% then I would begrudgingly accept it, but I struggle to see the point. It is fine as it is.

[Manofpassion]

Well, making trick personal is certainly one way to weaken its contribution to the party, for it now longer exists. The devs will need to try a lot harder and think of more creative ways to do such a thing to satisfy most ninja players. Before they actually work on such a solution, I rather have what we currently have instead of their proposed change. If trick attack is too strong in the devs eyes, reduce how much it buffs, maybe to 4 or 3%, and buffing other skills such as the potency of raiju or dwad. The devs are professionals, I'm sure they can think of much better ideas instead of just making trick a personal buff. Using mug as the new raid buff just screams lazy. I think most ninjas are now asking for a clear direction for the job, and these numerous changes do not inspire confidence.

Once again, logs are an afterthought to the majority of the playerbase. If current trick makes the boss die faster, that is a win. Speed is the only metric that matters. If fflogs gives the edge of shadows during trick to the ninja instead, who cares. It'll improve your parse by like 0.2%. Team game, if the boss dies quicker the ninja is rewarded by being able to do something else instead of raiding

[Kazimere]

Well, making trick personal is certainly one way to weaken its contribution to the party, for it now longer exists. The devs will need to try a lot harder and think of more creative ways to do such a thing to satisfy most ninja players. Before they actually work on such a solution, I rather have what we currently have instead of their proposed change. If trick attack is too strong in the devs eyes, reduce how much it buffs, maybe to 4 or 3%, and buffing other skills such as the potency of raiju or dwad. The devs are professionals, I'm sure they can think of much better ideas instead of just making trick a personal buff. Using mug as the new raid buff just screams lazy. I think most ninjas are now asking for a clear direction for the job, and these numerous changes do not inspire confidence.

Once again, logs are an afterthought to the majority of the playerbase. If current trick makes the boss die faster, that is a win. Speed is the only metric that matters. If fflogs gives the edge of shadows during trick to the ninja instead, who cares. It'll improve your parse by like 0.2%. Team game, if the boss dies quicker the ninja is rewarded by being able to do something else instead of raiding

You can reasonably infer that is what they are trying to do. Could it be wrong? Sure, but it's not likely. So, when people screech (I'm not saying you are specifically) that they like it the way it is because they like the feel and what not, they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

Logs are not an after thought. They are merely the representation of everything you are talking about. If it is indeed true that the majority of the player base doesn't care about logs, then they either don't understand what logs represent, or they outright don't care about their own performance or the performance of others in a team event.

[Manofpassion]

Nope, I'm screeching, and proud of it. Only reason I bothered to start a forums account is so I can add my voice to the numerous displeased ninja players. If square only cares about the numbers and logs like you suggest, and not the gameplay feel that ninjas enjoy, so be it. I am a subpar raider, but I can say that I only raid because I enjoy taking ninja's gameplay and feel into various hard content. If they want to alienate casual ninja raiders like me, it's their perogative.

Square from what I have seen doesn't really put gameplay enjoyment first anyway, with the summoner rework isolating many old summoners. I see no reason their philosophy will change just for ninja, but a man can dream.

I'm still pretty sure fflogs an afterthought to most people. I doubt the average sprout still in hw, or the party rpers really care about their parse in extremes. They play to have fun, as do I. If ffxiv is oriented to a more casual audience, I hope they care about what we find fun.