What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[DevonEllwood]

okay, I never had a say in whether what hydaelyn did was genocide or not because I wasn't sure if the Ancients were killed or not. So I just stayed out of it. My dum dum brain thought that's all it was, killing people. Then someone kindly dropped the definition for the word and, did anyone actually read the site?

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

I mean, actually read the whole thing? What Hydaelyn did that was deliberate and conscious of the outcome because of time travel was: 1. Changing the physical makeup of a group of people and removing their capabilities to deal with their environment (soul sundering, loss of creation magic), and 2. Removing the majority of their memories and identity and erase them from history (so they are not tempted to find a paradise again).

So, look at the definition again:


Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:

-A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
-A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
*Killing members of the group
* Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
* Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
*Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
*Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group


Mental element? Check, her intent was pretty clear and that says destroy, not kill. For the physical element I crossed out things that don't matter. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group is definitely something that happened. Erasure of memory is mental harm. The other definition is more fun though. Hydaelyn removed the ability to use creation magic. She inflicted a condition on them that would bring their destruction. She dropped a bunch of philosophers, office workers, and scientists who, with now shortened lifespans, are used to getting their every need magically created in world that's destroyed and only just starting to get back on its feet. I'm pretty sure that fits that definition.

You do not have to directly kill a group of people for it to be considered genocide. What she did was genocide. What's funny about this is that by what we know, the acians are actually less guilty of genocide from the definitions. Thy set up conditions for other people to cause their own demise accidentally. They made a big point of not actually killing the sundered themselves and instead coerce groups of people into performing things for them. Still really bad though, killed a lot of people.

WoL is guilty though. We deliberately went out and killed every last one of a group of people in the intent to wipe them out.

If you still think what Hydaelyn did isn't genocide after spelling it out, then you are doing what the developers intended people to do, so congrats.

I really wanted to have my weekly post be about how Shadowbringers patch Venat and Endwalker Venat kind of contradict each other in that SHB Venat was concerned about life continuing to exist on the planet, as opposed to EW Venat wholy concerned about mankind's existence to the point she was willing to abandon the plant and all life on it. And then there's Hades's stone mentioning "malformed" creatures, which everyone thought was the player races. The life that Zodiark brought before the sundering. Which contradicts Yoshida saying the races developed after the sundering.
There was clear story re-write and they didn't pick up that breadcrumb trail. I really wonder what the story was like before it was re-written. I wonder what an entire Garlean expansion would have been like.

[Caurcas]

Then someone kindly dropped the definition for the word and, did anyone actually read the site?

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

I mean, actually read the whole thing? What Hydaelyn did that was deliberate and conscious of the outcome because of time travel was: 1. Changing the physical makeup of a group of people and removing their capabilities to deal with their environment (soul sundering, loss of creation magic), and 2. Removing the majority of their memories and identity and erase them from history (so they are not tempted to find a paradise again).

So, look at the definition again:


Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:

-A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
-A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
*Killing members of the group
* Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
* Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
*Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
*Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group


Mental element? Check, her intent was pretty clear and that says destroy, not kill. For the physical element I crossed out things that don't matter. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group is definitely something that happened. Erasure of memory is mental harm. The other definition is more fun though. Hydaelyn removed the ability to use creation magic. She inflicted a condition on them that would bring their destruction. She dropped a bunch of philosophers, office workers, and scientists who, with now shortened lifespans, are used to getting their every need magically created in world that's destroyed and only just starting to get back on its feet. I'm pretty sure that fits that definition.

You do not have to directly kill a group of people for it to be considered genocide. What she did was genocide. What's funny about this is that by what we know, the acians are actually less guilty of genocide from the definitions. Thy set up conditions for other people to cause their own demise accidentally. They made a big point of not actually killing the sundered themselves and instead coerce groups of people into performing things for them. Still really bad though, killed a lot of people.

WoL is guilty though. We deliberately went out and killed every last one of a group of people in the intent to wipe them out.

If you still think what Hydaelyn did isn't genocide after spelling it out, then you are doing what the developers intended people to do, so congrats.

My WoL would do it all again.

[CrownySuccubus]

In the end, I was just disappointed that you couldn't tell Venat, "No. What you're saying sounds like a terrible idea. I don't care if Fandaniel played a crucial role in forestalling the Final Days on my timeline. In this timeline, you have a chance to do something about it. Tell the damn Convocation.

"As a friend of mine once said, 'This tragedy, greater than even the Seventh Umbral Calamity, must be undone. If history must be unwritten, let it be unwritten.'"

Honestly, the issue with the alternative approaches I've seen recommended is that they buy into the premise that the ancients had to be "scary" or needed to have some critical flaw.

My theory is that this (and many other problems of the EW plot) center on the fact that the writers wanted to assure the player that the current world is "stronger", with the implication that (like another poster here tried to argue) that "death is necessary" or that tragedy always preludes a brighter tomorrow. (The Ultima Thule song, "Close in the Distance" is all about that concept.) "Even in the face of despair, grow stronger and never stop hoping for a brighter tomorrow" is the story's answer to the question of inevitable oblivion.

However, that argument wouldn't work if what we knew about the Ancients as of ShB was true. They and their society were presented as objectively better than the modern day. They were wiser, more advanced, more powerful, more long-lived and seemingly (based on how they treat you in Amaurot as well as how Emet-Selch describes their willingness to sacrifice themselves for their brethren) more benevolent. If EW had kept that theme, then the argument of "tragedy leads to strength and a brighter tomorrow" would have fallen flat, because the modern races are flat out weaker and living in a worse world than the Ancients ever did. (Granted, it did anyway, but not for lack of the writers trying otherwise.)

So they decided to go with the argument that the Ancients were "decadent" and that they "had to die" so that the younger races would be stronger and be able to fight for the "brighter tomorrow". However, they also didn't want to commit too much to making the Ancients complete jerkwads, because then it would make their beloved Emet-Selch (who they now intend to milk for fanservice) retroactively seem like a deluded idiot in Shadowbringers. Imagine trying to replay Shadowbringers and listen to Emet-Selch talk about the utopia of Amaurot when we go there and they're, like, grinding screaming Lalafells into their coffee or something. Thus, they had to try to make the Ancients "bad...but not TOO bad" which results in the complete dumpster fire that was the Elpis storyline.

[SpectrePhantasia]

Thus, they had to try to make the Ancients "bad...but not TOO bad" which results in the complete dumpster fire that was the Elpis storyline.

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with it there, and I said something similar earlier. The Ancients were essentially rewritten to be something entirely different than how they were previously presented, to fit their EW theming of "Go humanity!" This was completely ignorant of the fact that making it that way turns a great deal of what made Shadowbringers a narrative with depth into something far lesser. I think this is a textbook example of how a bad ending can tarnish even the great writing that came before it.

Also, I know it was a while ago, but since I didn't see your direct comment on my last post until now I will say: I respect that desire to not have the "God" of a particular world be wrong or have some fundamental misunderstanding about the people they watch over, at least once. I will agree that JRPG's love to pull that "Man should govern their own fate" stuff, and while I personally enjoy it a good deal, (call it the Persona fan in me) I can see how that would try someone's patience in repeated occurrences. However, I feel that any hope of that being a reasonable conclusion to come to was removed in Shadowbringers, when we learn that Hydaelyn is a primal; not at god. Venat is just another person, no more predisposed to making the "right" choice than anyone else. I think that once that bombshell was dropped, the most fitting and narratively sincere thing to do would be to convey that she is, in essence, no more ascended in thought or ideals than any of her brethren.

[Skyborne]

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with it there, and I said something similar earlier. The Ancients were essentially rewritten to be something entirely different than how they were previously presented, to fit their EW theming of "Go humanity!" This was completely ignorant of the fact that making it that way turns a great deal of what made Shadowbringers a narrative with depth into something far lesser. I think this is a textbook example of how a bad ending can tarnish even the great writing that came before it.

Also, I know it was a while ago, but since I didn't see your direct comment on my last post until now I will say: I respect that desire to not have the "God" of a particular world be wrong or have some fundamental misunderstanding about the people they watch over, at least once. I will agree that JRPG's love to pull that "Man should govern their own fate" stuff, and while I personally enjoy it a good deal, (call it the Persona fan in me) I can see how that would try someone's patience in repeated occurrences. However, I feel that any hope of that being a reasonable conclusion to come to was removed in Shadowbringers, when we learn that Hydaelyn is a primal; not at god. Venat is just another person, no more predisposed to making the "right" choice than anyone else. I think that once that bombshell was dropped, the most fitting and narratively sincere thing to do would be to convey that she is, in essence, no more ascended in thought or ideals than any of her brethren.

ShB Ancients: "The world we loved and lived for is dying beneath our feet... we must trust in the Convocation and summon Zodiark, even at a great cost! The end has been averted and we are grateful to him. Now let's pick up the pieces of our lives and restore some normalcy..."
EW Ancients, in Venat's manifesto messiah-o-vision: "hurr durr we are silly deluded boomers, WE WILL NOT ACCEPT IT WE WILL NOT ACCEPT IT HELP US ZODIARK AAAAAAAAAAH BRB KILLING MYSELF FOR LOLS MUH PARADISE"
Yoshida: "You guys actually believe Emet-Selch? He's biased, you know! (laughs)"

The worst part of that scene for me which lives rentfree in my head 4-5 months later, is that it implies Venat was sneering at the concept of Zodiark in the first place and saw it as an 'easy out'. Meanwhile in the last part of the Amaurot dungeon, you see the planet in flames and resembling the dead star in UT. Guys, you have to just willpower your way out of the planet going down the toilet! If you used Zodiark, you didn't REALLY beat Elden Ring -- I mean, uh, passed my/Hermes' test!

And yeah. Hydaelyn is not a traditional goddess, just a powerful being who is wearing a skin suit made out of dead people. Just like how Zodiark is a holding tank for souls with a skin made out of the dead. Pretty metal if you think about it like that.

[Lauront]

ShB Ancients: "The world we loved and lived for is dying beneath our feet... we must trust in the Convocation and summon Zodiark, even at a great cost! The end has been averted and we are grateful to him. Now let's pick up the pieces of our lives and restore some normalcy..."
EW Ancients, in Venat's manifesto messiah-o-vision: "hurr durr we are silly deluded boomers, WE WILL NOT ACCEPT IT WE WILL NOT ACCEPT IT HELP US ZODIARK AAAAAAAAAAH BRB KILLING MYSELF FOR LOLS MUH PARADISE"

And yeah. Hydaelyn is not a traditional goddess, just a powerful being who is wearing a skin suit made out of dead people. Just like how Zodiark is a holding tank for souls with a skin made out of the dead. Pretty metal if you think about it like that.

I don't think there's a primal the game has bent over backwards as much for as her in trying to portray her, unlike all the others, as a deity. If they're going to do that, they may as well do it for the much more potent one...

[Brinne]

The worst part of that scene for me which lives rentfree in my head 4-5 months later, is that it implies Venat was sneering at the concept of Zodiark in the first place and saw it as an 'easy out'. Meanwhile in the last part of the Amaurot dungeon, you see the planet in flames and resembling the dead star in UT. Guys, you have to just willpower your way out of the planet going down the toilet! If you used Zodiark, you didn't REALLY beat Elden Ring -- I mean, uh, passed my/Hermes' test!

Lmao, to quote a friend of mine again: "Oh my god, she really just told the Ancients to just bootstrap."

If I was faced with an incomprehensible apocalypse that destroyed my world, I would simply hope my way out of it. RIP to the Ancients but I'm different.

[CrownySuccubus]

I respect that desire to not have the "God" of a particular world be wrong or have some fundamental misunderstanding about the people they watch over, at least once. I will agree that JRPG's love to pull that "Man should govern their own fate" stuff, and while I personally enjoy it a good deal, (call it the Persona fan in me) I can see how that would try someone's patience in repeated occurrences. However, I feel that any hope of that being a reasonable conclusion to come to was removed in Shadowbringers, when we learn that Hydaelyn is a primal; not at god. Venat is just another person, no more predisposed to making the "right" choice than anyone else.

Call it the optimist in me wanting to accept the story on the terms the writers wanted. As I've mentioned in the past, I liked Venat's character and charisma and found her standpoint interesting, but that's within the story's moral framework. Looking at the story from the lens of the real world, I'd slap her and say "What the fuck is wrong with you!?".

Also, I've mentioned before that I'm a skeptic, so I don't inherently believe in higher powers and whatnot, but I do find the idea fascinating. I don't like "Only man has the right to create destiny" stories because I don't deify humankind any more than fictitious beings. So again, for EW, I was able to (mostly) turn off my brain and just accept that the story portrayed Venat as "correctly knowing better".

[Lauront]

Also, I've mentioned before that I'm a skeptic, so I don't inherently believe in higher powers and whatnot, but I do find the idea fascinating. I don't like "Only man has the right to create destiny" stories because I don't deify humankind any more than fictitious beings.

Aye, personally I'm not a huge fan of the kill/punch god themes myself. It's one of those aspects of this series that has never resonated too much with me. I was glad that XII actually had the removal of the Occuria come with some significant consequences to it. XIV seems to take a different approach, with no gods that we know of as yet, but having a lot of the unsundered races be equivalent to demigods (dragons, ancients and probably some of the other alien races), and methods to construct god-like entities.

[CrownySuccubus]

Aye, personally I'm not a huge fan of the kill/punch god themes myself. It's one of those aspects of this series that has never resonated too much with me. I was glad that XII actually had the removal of the Occuria come with some significant consequences to it. XIV seems to take a different approach, with no gods that we know of as yet, but having a lot of the unsundered races be equivalent to demigods (dragons, ancients and probably some of the other alien races), and methods to construct god-like entities.

Indeed. I'm curious to meet the Twelve, and hope they'll actually be benevolent deities. I know the term "god" is a loaded word, but I'm perfectly willing to call an immortal, clairvoyant and ultra-powerful being a god if its something worthy of respect. Likewise, I want to know if the new "Perfected Primals" are going to stick around. If so, it's gonna be hard for me to pick between Horse Daddy Ramuh and Lakshmi of the Divine Bosom.