Hissatsu: Kaiten

[WaxSw]

I can understand why a dev would think about deleting the skill to alleviate button bloat, its effect is simple enough that its loss could be compensated with simple mathematical buffs, it didn't add to sam's resource management as every combo gives at least 20 kenki and its application was a no brainer...

But its nonsensical picking it for deletion instead of stuff like shoha or senei/guren which could be merged, impacting less the flavour and gameplay of samurai, to achieve the same result

[Lium]

Turn off BFX for a while and you'll figure out it's just spamming 1 then spamming 2. There's no depth to it at all and it's somehow even more shallow than healer gameplay. It just has a metric assload of particle effects strapped to it to try and hide how shallow the gameplay is.

Previous SMN was just spamming one button until it was time to bring out Bahamut/Phoenix. And then it was spamming the same buttons but faster. Most of the damage came from the dots and the pets. Managing your pets is where the additional button-mashing came from. And of course, reapplying your dots.

New SMN just basically took pets and dots away, and put the pets on a rotation. I actually think it's much more intuitive, faster and even more mobile than it was before. And yes, it's a visually stunning job to play.

[AlgrenH]

it only exists to punish if you mis-count your Kenki and use one too many of the oGCDs, as it's only useful before an Iaijutsu or Ogi Namikiri.

it only punishes you if you dont pay attention when you play, and rewards good kenki management and gcd usage. Kaiten has tied the Samurai burst phase together since release and even with the addition of ōgi namakiri SE has incorportated it as a "boost" for your iaijutsu skills. If button bloat is the issue there are many more "useless" buttons to look at, Shoha II, Ōgi being a seperate button from ikishoten, and Guren and Senei being seperate buttons. These issues arent even mentioning the problems we'll face with crit buffs like Chain Strategem, Devilment and Battle litany being pointless on Samurai should these changes go through. If SE wants Samurai to have guaranteed crits just make Kaiten guarantee a crit on your next Iaijutsu or Ogi Namakiri cast.

[Ransu]

4. Resource management. We went from having 3 kenki spenders down to 2, which Senei/Guren is a on 2 minute CD that lines up with Ikishoten so really you had 2 kenki spenders down to 1 now. Having a gauge with only one way to spend the resource is boring. Other classes have that issue. I'm sure some people like it and I'm fine with that, let them have some classes that have that option. But having to balance kenki usage to ensure I didn't dip below Kaiten's cost was part of the fun in resource management. It wasn't just a button for the sake of pressing a button like BLMs Enochian was. Because unlike Enochian where you're going to press it no matter what, floating kenki high so you have enough kenki to do what you need while having the risk of overcapping was a conscious choice with autonomous decision making. On top of that, since Senei only takes 25 kenki it was helpful to be able to weave kaiten and shinten together to eat 45 kenki before ikishoten came up so I could maximize kenki for raid buffs.

5. SAM still puts out good damage even if you don't play it optimally. Forget to Kaiten before midare? Not the end of the world. Never touch third eye? Not a gigantic loss. Overcap your kenki on accident? No big deal. You could play the class as casually as you wanted and still do decent damage. But I like high skill ceilings. You can make the skill floor as low as you want, but don't lower the skill ceiling. Optimizing is a big part of the fun for me, simple classes just leave me kind of bored. Resolving button bloat would do far more in helping more casual players pick up the class.

6. Just to add to this since it's related to kaiten being taken away: I don't like autocrits. I don't like them for WAR and I don't like it for SAM. On top of it being anti-synergetic with crit buffs it's just not a fun philosophy. When every hit is a crit, no hit is a crit. What's the fun of rolling a Nat 20 when there are no other numbers on the dice? If damage variance was the issue the easy answer was to reduce the potency of Ogi Namikiri/Midare and move it into the rest of the kit. If SE is planning on guaranteeing crits more and more then at the very least crit buffs need to move from improving crit chance to improving crit damage.

All in all, I felt like SAM was in an incredibly solid spot at this point and could've gone without ANY changes compared to some of the other classes. I don't really care if this class is the top dps class or the ideal dance partner, I stuck with SAM when RPR came out and MNK was the king of melee damage. I like the class, Kaiten is a big part of the class. So unless there's more changes coming that are going to resolve the issues I've described above I can't imagine that these changes will be fun ones.

Honestly at this point it wouldn't surprise me if in the future kenki gets removed and shinten because some kind of CD with multiple stacks.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Dark Knight used to have an ability called "Dark Arts". You would press it to enhance your other actions and abilities. There (Dark Arts)was a (Dark Arts)big meme (Dark Arts)about (Dark Arts)how they would Dark Arts everything.

It was removed in Shadowbringers but Kaiten is used the same way, so you can see the other reason that might have contributed to the decision.

Hm, I wonder if this is hinting at some sort of spellblade job in the future. Because DRK *was* the "Rune Fencer" until SAM and RDM were released. And I still think SAM is basically just an eastern take on a Spellblade job.

For the record, I am against a Spellblade job for several reasons, and this--the dilution of existing job designs--is one of them.

[Minarisweet]

Previous SMN was just spamming one button until it was time to bring out Bahamut/Phoenix. And then it was spamming the same buttons but faster. Most of the damage came from the dots and the pets. Managing your pets is where the additional button-mashing came from. And of course, reapplying your dots.

New SMN just basically took pets and dots away, and put the pets on a rotation. I actually think it's much more intuitive, faster and even more mobile than it was before. And yes, it's a visually stunning job to play.

Egi assault 1 didn't exist, egi assault 2 didn't exist, ruin 3 didn't exist, ruin 4 didn't exist, bio and miasma that you have to press you like it or not after bahamut didn't exist. Maybe all summoner players that didn't like it before just didn't know how to play the job lol.

[Vahlnir]

Egi assault 1 didn't exist, egi assault 2 didn't exist, ruin 3 didn't exist, ruin 4 didn't exist, bio and miasma that you have to press you like it or not after bahamut didn't exist. Maybe all summoner players that didn't like it before just didn't know how to play the job lol.

I had a basic understanding how how SMN functioned, at least in Shadowbringers, when I decided to level it for my Amaro mount. It wasn't bad. Definitely more fun than I remembered it back in ARR and HW. But I still felt like it wasn't quite there yet. Endwalker's SMN all but fixed that for me. Now it's one of my most played jobs. To each their own, but I'm enjoying it more now than I've ever been.

[Fourbestintoner]

See you in 6.2 when they delete positionals and *************people************* here defend it.
Can't wait until sam gets its own shitty 2 minute raid buff, the final homogenization.

[Vahlnir]

See you in 6.2 when they delete positionals and *************people************* here defend it.
Can't wait until sam gets its own shitty 2 minute raid buff, the final homogenization.

I'm confused as to why they felt the need to remove this particular ability. Certain things I will defend, but not unnecessary changes.

[VictorSpoils]

I can name other abilities they could change or remove instead of removing a core mechanic of the class; nonetheless one that gives it an identity along with the cool sword twirling animation.

I. Shoha II; lazily named ability that could be traited to Shoha for fall-off aoe damage.
II. Senei and Guren; the same could be done to this.
III. Ikishoten and Namikiri

I was proud to play a class that demands high skill to do optimal damage; removing Kaiten to 'combat button bloat' does nothing but remove part of the class' core identity and dumbs it down when there are other areas that could have been addressed. As an addendum if it means anything, SAM Main here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This could work too. It gets rid of four buttons, which would leave enough room for Kaiten to come back as well as Seigan and Merciful Eyes.