What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Skyborne]

I don't think it's the same thing. I think the story was attempting to portray the Ancients constantly trying to undo their suffering rather than living on and learning from it, which supposedly would've led directly to them being unable to stop the Final Days should Zodiark falter. However, we were never actually shown that and just left to infer it from the potential third sacrifice, a few lines of dialogue in the last Elpis cutscene, and the last dungeon in the Dead Ends, so there's not nearly enough reason to believe that that's the case.

It doesn't really help that they introduced Dynamis and the idea that the Ancients would've somehow never ever ever gotten to Ultima Thule because they couldn't interact with it (nevermind humans irl cannot survive in the vacuum of space for very long but made workarounds to it... and this is a magical fantasy race that can create anything their heart desires). So even if they did accept everything and simply move on leaving all those souls cooped up in Zodiark... Hydaelyn would be sundering them anyway for that reason alone, or so the writing would have us accept. On top of that, the time loop meant Venat already knew her future besty was waiting for her.

[tokinokanatae]

I don't think it's the same thing. I think the story was attempting to portray the Ancients constantly trying to undo their suffering rather than living on and learning from it, which supposedly would've led directly to them being unable to stop the Final Days should Zodiark falter. However, we were never actually shown that and just left to infer it from the potential third sacrifice, a few lines of dialogue in the last Elpis cutscene, and the last dungeon in the Dead Ends, so there's not nearly enough reason to believe that that's the case.

I agree that this is what the third sacrifice was supposed to imply, but the narrative undercut itself by having all those souls that sacrificed themselves for the planet existing in (an implied painful!) purgatory for thousands and thousands of years. 75% of the Ancients were basically being tortured and taken out of the cycle of life! Leaving them alone is like having proof that Hell exists and that you could save everyone suffering there, but shrugging and saying, "well, they chose eternal pain to save their loved ones, all we can do is accept that and move on with our lives."

[AziraSyuren]

I agree that this is what the third sacrifice was supposed to imply, but the narrative undercut itself by having all those souls that sacrificed themselves for the planet existing in (an implied painful!) purgatory for thousands and thousands of years. 75% of the Ancients were basically being tortured and taken out of the cycle of life! Leaving them alone is like having proof that Hell exists and that you could save everyone suffering there, but shrugging and saying, "well, they chose eternal pain to save their loved ones, all we can do is accept that and move on with our lives."

I don''t know if the Ancients were aware of that, and even if they were, the only other option was to sacrifice half of the newly-sown life on the planet, leaving them in the same situation. That would've left them culpable for that too lest they destroy Zodiark at a later date, something which they probably couldn't have done due to being tempered (unless Hermes lost his mind again LMAO) and would've just caused the Final Days to continue anyways.

That also would've left Venat a lot more justified in the Sundering, so it might've been better for the narrative.

[Lauront]

Only the Convocation was tempered, as a side-effect of the summoning due to the power that went into it, and even then, Emet-Selch could deviate from his original plan, where he deemed this to be appropriate. Elidibus was controlling the primal and emerged from him to mediate the dispute, so we can reasonably infer he knew what was happening with the souls inside of Zodiark, and may have even brought this into discussions between the ancients on that topic.

As for exchanging the problem? I don't think that'd necessarily be the case. The setting doesn't outright say it, but there does seem to be a differentiation in the souls it sticks in sapient races, like the ancients (to the point that even after thousands of years, we can reliably say the sundered are fragmented ancient souls), and those that go into animals and non-sapient monstrosities, which wouldn't have cultivated the notion of returning to the star as a yearning. So as an exchange of power so that the primal remains at full functionality, to liberate the souls of their brethren, it makes sense.

We need to recall Venat did not share the specifics of her concerns with them.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I don''t know if the Ancients were aware of that, and even if they were, the only other option was to sacrifice half of the newly-sown life on the planet, leaving them in the same situation. That would've left them culpable for that too lest they destroy Zodiark at a later date, something which they probably couldn't have done due to being tempered (unless Hermes lost his mind again LMAO) and would've just caused the Final Days to continue anyways.

That also would've left Venat a lot more justified in the Sundering, so it might've been better for the narrative.

Are you talking about the 3rd sacrifice? Where are you getting half? Afaik the only reference we get to that is Hythlodaeus saying they’d sacrifice a portion of the new life. Not half.

[CrownySuccubus]

Only the Convocation was tempered, as a side-effect of the summoning due to the power that went into it, and even then, Emet-Selch could deviate from his original plan, where he deemed this to be appropriate. Elidibus was controlling the primal and emerged from him to mediate the dispute, so we can reasonably infer he knew what was happening with the souls inside of Zodiark, and may have even brought this into discussions between the ancients on that topic.

Where was it said that any Ascians were tempered? I remember that being a popular fan theory, but I don't recall any place in the game that says it.

Endwalker, in fact, outright contradicts it by saying that "tempering" was a side-effect diliberately invented by the Ascians when they taught summoners how to mimic creation magicks. That's why Livingway was able to fuel the Ragnarok with non-tempering summons, which she describes as summonings as they were originally used and intended.

[PawPaw]

Where was it said that any Ascians were tempered? I remember that being a popular fan theory, but I don't recall any place in the game that says it.

Endwalker, in fact, outright contradicts it by saying that "tempering" was a side-effect diliberately invented by the Ascians when they taught summoners how to mimic creation magicks. That's why Livingway was able to fuel the Ragnarok with non-tempering summons, which she describes as summonings as they were originally used and intended.

[AziraSyuren]

Only the Convocation was tempered, as a side-effect of the summoning due to the power that went into it, and even then, Emet-Selch could deviate from his original plan, where he deemed this to be appropriate. Elidibus was controlling the primal and emerged from him to mediate the dispute, so we can reasonably infer he knew what was happening with the souls inside of Zodiark, and may have even brought this into discussions between the ancients on that topic.

As for exchanging the problem? I don't think that'd necessarily be the case. The setting doesn't outright say it, but there does seem to be a differentiation in the souls it sticks in sapient races, like the ancients (to the point that even after thousands of years, we can reliably say the sundered are fragmented ancient souls), and those that go into animals and non-sapient monstrosities, which wouldn't have cultivated the notion of returning to the star as a yearning. So as an exchange of power so that the primal remains at full functionality, to liberate the souls of their brethren, it makes sense.

We need to recall Venat did not share the specifics of her concerns with them.

No offense but that's about as much of a reach as the excuses people make to defend Venat. It was equally implied that the newly sown life could've inherited the star too, if I'm remembering right, which is something that probably wouldn't have been said of non-sapient beings. Some might've thought that they were non-sapient, but I think the fact that there was such a division in Ancient society over whether or not the third sacrifice was justified points to the opposite. The people who had problems with how they dealt with normal Creations were in the vast, vast, vast minority, and that was because Hermes thought they were sapient to some degree.

Also, I don't think deviating from the plan would've included doing away with Zodiark, and the only people who reasonably had the power to stop him were the Convocation (and ex-members, i.e. Venat, but then we'd be right back where we started). But it's definitely possible that that's not the case and they would've been both willing and able to unsummon Zodiark after dealing with the source of the Final Days.

Upon further consideration, I do think that Elidibus knew about the nature of the souls inside Zodiark, though, as it was heavily hinted if not outright stated by him before we went to Elpis. Which makes it interesting that he detached himself from Zodiark to mediate the division rather than convince people to go ahead with it.

Are you talking about the 3rd sacrifice? Where are you getting half? Afaik the only reference we get to that is Hythlodaeus saying they’d sacrifice a portion of the new life. Not half.

It might not be half, but the specific amount doesn't matter and it's just splitting hairs at this point.

[CrownySuccubus]

Thanks for that. I honestly don't even remember that dialogue.

So then, Endwalker even screwed up THAT lore. (sigh....)

[PawPaw]

I've seen lots of confusion about whether they were or weren't and suggestions that this line might not even be true, given what we are told in EW. I have no idea. It's not too surprising when they can't keep the lore straight from one EP to the very next one.

Speaking of lore that is confusing, what's the deal with the Echo these days? I remember being told a while ago that the Echo was what was protecting me from being tempered but in EW they say it's a sparkly "blessing" that's doing it, which doesn't really add up as neither Fordola nor Zenos had said blessing and Primals didn't faze them at all.