Future direction of FFXIV

[HyoMinPark]

Job complexity doesn't always equal fun. Nor does it need to. I think that there needs to be a few jobs with a higher learning curve though, and we do have some of those. But not every job needs to be that way. Healers...yeah, like I've said many times I will never defend their design currently. They need serious help. I pity anyone who players a healer right now. And the next addition to the housing system, as well as the implementation of a lottery, will do absolutely nothing to fix housing. So we are still waiting for something meaningful. lol But yeah, things aren't perfect, but I still agree with the sentiment that the game's doing just fine.

Regarding job complexity—I think that there should be some kind of skill ceiling that each job has. The issue is, is that the developers are so determined to close the gap between “bad players” and “good players” that they have destroyed the skill ceilings for some of these jobs. And they’ve taken away and taken away repeatedly without really giving them anything back. It’s sort of cheapened the rewards for optimizing a job, and made them less fun to play for those who mained the jobs previously. I think that’s mostly what Kizuya was getting at: the devs are so focused on accessibility and making everything so easy and so “Baby’s First ___” that the complexity that previously existed that players loved is gone. I don’t think that accessibility is necessarily a bad thing, but it is when it comes at the cost of engagement and enjoyment.

I always think about Stormblood BRD when I think about how job complexity has gone down. Though BRD still has some optimization to it now, it’s not to the extent that it was in Stormblood. There was Straight Shot upkeep, Foe Requiem + Refresh management, Iron Jaws optimization…multiple things that good BRDs could chase in terms of optimization that weren’t inherently complex but that felt good to execute. And these were removed because the developers did not like how large the gap was between skilled BRDs and unskilled BRDs. That was the reason they gave for the removal of these things—alongside the unmentioned reason of “we’re giving all of this party support to DNC now because it’s the shiny new support class and this game can’t have two supports nope nope nope”. Nothing was given to BRDs in place of all the removals, and it left old BRD mains feeling particularly salty.

[Jeeqbit]

Jobs don't need to be that complicated, as long as the content keeps you busy instead, which for me it does.

[HyoMinPark]

Jobs don't need to be that complicated, as long as the content keeps you busy instead, which for me it does.

I mean, Stormblood BRD wasn’t even that complicated. Its basic play was incredibly simplistic. It was the nuance and optimization that allowed for a higher skill ceiling, and more reward from optimization for those who pursued it. That optimization was enjoyable for those who pursued it while also not being mandatory for those who did not.

Not every job needs to be braindead or have elements removed all because some players can’t manage it. Heavy Thrust and Straight Shot were removed/reworked because people supposedly struggled with upkeep even though said upkeep was incredibly simplistic: HT fell naturally in your rotation after you did your Chaos Thrust combo and your Full Thrust combo; Straight Shot was literally “press every 30 seconds”.

And, ironically, they added a Heavy Thrust/Straight Shot to Reaper. So I guess they thought this kind of self-buff wasn’t actually that difficult after all. Otherwise, why would they have given it to Reaper?


As for content keeping players busy—perhaps you should ask healer mains how busy they feel in most content.

[Absurdity]

Content needs to keep you engaged, not just busy, and designing content that can keep players engaged for 3+ months is as good as nonexistent in this game.

Most combat content in this game is so incredibly easy and mindnumbingly boring that I have to force myself to do it, this is never going to change and I have accepted that.
The few difficult activities we actually have are engaging...for when you progress through them and then at best the first 5 times you do them after the initial kill, you can only whack the same 4 bosses so many times between raid tiers before the mechanics dance becomes just another "going through the motions".

Where the long term engagement comes from is your job. Playing an engaging job can keep you entertained for a very long time, especially when you're trying to optimize and master it.
It doesn't require a specific difficulty for the content either, you can bring an engaging job into the most mindless content and still have a good time.

This is why SE's crusade against the skill-ceiling is such a baffling thing, all it will do is make people bored of the game at an even more accelerated rate.


Let me take the healer design as an example and exaggerate it a bit more.
Let's assume every job is designed to make you spam 1 button for the entire fight, maybe 2-3 oGCDs that you just press on cooldown, and the skill-ceiling would be pressing 1 as often as you can.
I would quit the game right here and now because, no matter how difficult or "busy" the content, I would be bored out of my mind almost immediately.


Healers aren't quite that bad, but they're very close...as is warrior if you really think about it.

[Jeeqbit]

Not every job needs to be braindead or have elements removed all because some players can’t manage it. Heavy Thrust and Straight Shot were removed/reworked because people supposedly struggled with upkeep even though said upkeep was incredibly simplistic: HT fell naturally in your rotation after you did your Chaos Thrust combo and your Full Thrust combo; Straight Shot was literally “press every 30 seconds”.

I don't agree about Heavy Thrust. I struggled with it as well and just couldn't play DRG. I don't like standalone GCDs and especially ones that can disrupt a combo.

What made it differ from Reaper's is that it couldn't increase the duration to 60s, so you had to hit it at the exact right time in your rotation or it either wasn't optimal or expired causing you to disrupt your combo, whereas Reaper has more flexibility on when to refresh it. Reaper's doesn't disrupt the combo.

What made it worse was not sharing the first GCD for both combos, because all other melee classes did except MNK and MNK could still continue the other combo instead. If you put each melee combo on a different hotbar like I do and switch hotbars for each combo, this could be a problem when the first button is pressed right before switching. DRG has been perfect to me since Shadowbringers.

As for content keeping players busy—perhaps you should ask healer mains how busy they feel in most content.

When I heal I'm usually busy (spamming broil or dosis). I play AST if I don't want to be bored on a healer.

Healers aren't quite that bad, but they're very close...as is warrior if you really think about it.

I think that Warrior is perfect. It's pretty braindead most of the time, just keeping up Surging Tempest and Fell Cleaving, so I can focus on mechanics. When there isn't anything going on I'm usually doing my burst with Inner Release, Primal Rend and Infuriate, which just about keeps me entertained.

There is probably more capacity that Warriors could have though because Gunbreakers are really busy but still feel manageable.

[HyoMinPark]

I don't agree about Heavy Thrust. I struggled with it as well and just couldn't play DRG. I don't like standalone GCDs and especially ones that can disrupt a combo.

Heavy Thrust wasn’t used mid-combo, though. You did Heavy Thrust > Chaos Thrust combo > Full Thrust combo > Heavy Thrust reapplication. It was extremely straight-forward. Pre the five step combo, you did two Full Thrust combos, and then Heavy Thrust > repeat. It wasn’t hard at all. The only punishing aspect was the positional requirement—which, if I remember correctly, was adjusted prior to the full-out removal.

What made it differ from Reaper's is that it couldn't increase the duration to 60s, so you had to hit it at the exact right time in your rotation or it either wasn't optimal or expired causing you to disrupt your combo, whereas Reaper has more flexibility on when to refresh it. Reaper's doesn't disrupt the combo.

See above about Heavy Thrust and combos—you never applied it mid-combo. It fell naturally into DRG’s combo rotation. If you were having to apply it mid-combo, then you were doing something wrong.

What made it worse was not sharing the first GCD for both combos, because all other melee classes did except MNK and MNK could still continue the other combo instead. If you put each melee combo on a different hotbar like I do and switch hotbars for each combo, this could be a problem when the first button is pressed right before switching. DRG has been perfect to me since Shadowbringers.

That seems like a you problem by making strange hotbar layouts. Not a job problem.

When I heal I'm usually busy (spamming broil or dosis). I play AST if I don't want to be bored on a healer.

Not at all what I meant, and you know it.

[ForteNightshade]

I don't agree about Heavy Thrust. I struggled with it as well and just couldn't play DRG. I don't like standalone GCDs and especially ones that can disrupt a combo.

What made it differ from Reaper's is that it couldn't increase the duration to 60s, so you had to hit it at the exact right time in your rotation or it either wasn't optimal or expired causing you to disrupt your combo, whereas Reaper has more flexibility on when to refresh it. Reaper's doesn't disrupt the combo.

As a former Dragoon main, everything you said here is basically a you problem. There was nothing complicated about Heavy Thrust nor was it difficult to maintain once you were accustomed to the job. It essentially functioned as your starter and gave Dragoon additional weave space. This, alongside, Phlebotomize, added a degree of upkeep on the job that no longer exists. Nowadays, Dragoon remains both rigid and relatively thoughtless. You spam a five string combo and never think about much else. Not to say I dislike the changes given some have made the job flow better. Nevertheless, maintaining Heavy Thrust was not hard for anyone who bothered to put any time into the job. And it's removal is directly in response to people who simply wouldn't.

As for Reaper. You don't want to double up on Shadow of Death. It's a DPS loss as you're using a weaker GCD within raid buff, thus pushing your higher potency attacks out of raid buffs. Not to mention, this sort of change is something they could have easily implemented on Dragoon years ago. In terms of functionality though, they're essentially the same thing. Players who struggled with Heavy Thrust, or straight up forgot to apply it, will likely have the same issue with Shadow of Death.

What made it worse was not sharing the first GCD for both combos, because all other melee classes did except MNK and MNK could still continue the other combo instead. If you put each melee combo on a different hotbar like I do and switch hotbars for each combo, this could be a problem when the first button is pressed right before switching. DRG has been perfect to me since Shadowbringers.

How you allocate your hotbars has nothing to do with job design. If I opt for a strange layout on Dark Knight, that isn't the devs fault. This is essentially the same as people complaining they have no hotbar space despite stuffing minions and mounts on two of them.

When I heal I'm usually busy (spamming broil or dosis). I play AST if I don't want to be bored on a healer.

Which is the precise problem many Healer mains have. Although, I suspect you're well aware of this. Spamming a single key endless is neither riveting nor good job design. No encounter, regardless of its majesty, will ever hold up long enough to make that sort of "gameplay" interesting. Alas, it's all healers have—even at an Ultimate level.

[Jeeqbit]

As a former Dragoon main, everything you said here is basically a you problem.

Didn't seem like the developers thought it was just a me problem when they kept taking potency away from Heavy Thrust and then removed it altogether.

[Rilifane]

Didn't seem like the developers thought it was just a me problem when they kept taking potency away from Heavy Thrust and then removed it altogether.

The devs also thought that reducing healers to one button spam was a good idea. Or that placard clicking was a good idea. SB Lilies. oGCD Mudras on the high APM job. WHM MP economy. Removal of ED.
I could go on but I'm sure you realized by now that devs are humans and not infallible. So using "but the devs think the same!" as an argument for something that definitely was a you problem isn't working as well as you think it does.

[Jeeqbit]

The devs also thought that reducing healers to one button spam was a good idea.

Of course, they sit on top of statistics to inform changes like this.