What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

My issue isn't so much other characters fawning over mine as it is mine fawning over them. This is my problem with Haurchefant. I wasn't attached to his character at all, in fact, I think his model is ugly, I didn't like his VA, and since we got the 'sanitized western' version of him I thought he came across as a generic NPC for the most part. I didn't cry at his death either, it was Edmont's reaction that got me. However, my WoL was crushed, displaying a level of sorrow that I've yet to see on my character's face since. Matter of fact, I have cried my heart out at Emet multiple times and my WoL only ever looks mildly disappointed (and that's when they're not displaying anger or skepticism). Meanwhile, I've had I think at least 3 different cutscenes at Haurchefant's grave, I have his emote*, I am incessantly plagued with flashbacks of him because they insist on milking his death for all its worth and this adds to the feeling that my WoL is still utterly broken over him. It honestly felt like my WoL had something going on with him on the side and it's kind of gross.

* Noting that the "snap" emote isn't marketed as being associated with Emet and you have to purchase it from the cash shop.

As far as the women, the only one who was uncomfortable was Lyse in the 'sparring' scene in slow motion, with a sunset in the background, where it looked like our characters were coming in for a kiss. Alisaie's 'crush' hasn't felt intrusive yet. However, I very much view her as a minor and with Yoshi-P stating that they have no intention of aging their models it's going to be awkward. Going by the game's life she may end up being 26 years old and still have the body of a 16 year old.

G'raha is an interesting case. I don't find his model necessarily attractive, but his VA is excellent and has made his character endearing. I understand why people don't like G'raha, but I haven't noticed my character going nuts over him though I am biased because I like him. Sometimes I miss the more subdued affection he had as the Crystal Exarch, but it was always there. He's just more overt about his hero worship now, which is somewhat disappointing because I get the feeling for at least half of the Scions they wouldn't have anything to do with my character if I weren't a 'hero'.

A bit off topic, but Estinien is probably the only one I consider a true brother-in-arms with whom I bonded over being the Azure Dragoon and participant in the Dragonsong War not because I'm the Warrior of Light. The main reason Thancred has been a long time favorite is because initially he didn't care either, he was distressed in ARR that he couldn't be there to protect me from Ifrit. Every other Scion was like, "How can we use her? Let us count the ways!" Alphinaud and Minfilia in particular were candid about the fact that we were a weapon in their arsenal.

A proper rendition of Egypt could be interesting, because what we've seen so far is limited to a couple of dungeons.

I completely forgot to mention Uldum because, unfortunately, it is forgettable. Beautiful zone, ruined by it being turned into a poorly done Indiana Jones parody. I also posted that image of Tarna from QFG3 forgetting that the Tol'vir are basically copies of their liontaurs. :P

[KizuyaKatogami]

Understandable, and I get it. What I am telling you is Ryne does not exist. She is not a real girl. That's not to say that just because it is a fantasy realm, all bets are off. But I hope you get the point here.


I've been here awhile, and have not seen anyone lust over the Twins. Not saying it doesn't happen, but this isn't the angle your previous statements were coming from. I was under the impression that the issue is Alisaie could have a thing for the WoL. I am also not sure why you are so adverse. Alisaie in particular has done nothing to advance towards the WoL. The very mention of her admiration around you turns her more red than a crimson sunset, and there is nothing for you to turn away.

With G'raha I am honestly over here thinking, "How could you not adore him?" I'm sure he is not everyone's cup of tea, but he's a Samaritan who puts everyone's needs before his own. To a fault even, and has to be told, "I just need groceries. Your life not is required G'raha!" This is where I have a BIG problem, see? Anyone and everyone who does not want to hug and squeeze the life out of G'raha clearly does not have their head on straight.

... I kid, but yeah. G'raha is cool.

I just personally find the constant hero worship Graha does very jarring. It takes away from a lot of the serious moments in the story, like when hes fawning over us and estinien in shb just after we had learned about mass tempering towers. It was a horrible time for it. Him being a mary sue doesnt help either though, as its a trope i heavily despise.

[Brinne]

Is the goal of SE to sell me their product or not? Is their goal not to keep me paying my sub? The interesting things that brought me here and got me to stay are done and resolved-I didn't come here for a visual novel where nothing of consequence happens in niche settings I fundamentally have little interest in compared to Ishgard or Garlemald.

A slightly modified quote from earlier in the thread that seems relevant:

I see no reason to deny your wishes but I also see no reason as to why they should take priority over the widespread appeal that G'raha Tia has. Perhaps his overwhelming presence in the game is because a lot of people are interested in seeing him.

Do you see how the fallacy works, here? No one is particularly wrapped up in whether you as an individual continue paying your sub. The issue is when you proclaim your own interests align with the "widespread appeal," which should take priority. If we're speaking for SE, well, G'raha is the second most popular NPC in the series, and the opinion that he should be pulled back is a definite minority, so where does the "they should go with what sells and what appeals to me, the spokesperson for what has widespread appeal" start and end?

When I talk about my problems with Venat and how she was portrayed, I can only hope I articulate my thoughts and observations well enough that it resonates with someone - ideally, with the team, even though it's a long shot, though it's still worthwhile even if it's with at least one other player. I'm not going to proclaim that the devs should change their approach to her because I'm pretty sure actually, tons of people dislike Venat, or whatever. That's demonstrably not true and also a sort of absurd argument if we're looking for any kind of quality storytelling decisions.

[aveyond-dreams]

A slightly modified quote from earlier in the thread that seems relevant:



Do you see how the fallacy works, here?

Do you not understand that G'raha Tia is now becoming a detraction rather than a meaningful addition in peoples eyes and that a continued focus on characters like him while the elements that sold me on this game are resolved and removed will ultimately cause SE to fail in the goal of getting me to keep giving them money for this game?

But thank you for bringing up the subject of settings again, despite the conversation having largely moved on from that.

If SE decides to turn completely turn over the world to the twitter fandom who are willing to tolerate niche settings far removed from Garlemald and Ishgard along with their plushie characters, so be it. I just pray that they release FFXVI first so I have something else to do. Stranger of Paradise with Jack was great fun, hopefully Clive will provide a more fleshed out experience in his mainline title game.

[Brinne]

Do you not understand that G'raha Tia is now becoming a detraction rather than a meaningful addition in peoples eyes and that a continued focus on characters like him while the elements that sold me on this game are resolved and removed will ultimately cause SE to fail in the goal of getting me to keep giving them money for this game?

G'raha Tia is the second most popular NPC in the game, so I'm not sure who "people" are. If it's you and the people you know, cool! That's not going to be much of a marketing factor on its own compared to the thousands of people who voted for him in the polls and love him, though, if we want to truly take the angle of "marketing" and "sales" as our argumentative stance.

[aveyond-dreams]

G'raha Tia is the second most popular NPC in the game.

Based on a survey of what I believe was no more than 6000 players out of Japan, which accounts for only 1 of the regions this game provides service to. In any case, he is of course largely beaten out by Emet-Selch, gee I wonder why.

Apparently Haurcefant was also quite popular on that survey if I remember correctly, despite him having contributed nothing to the story since Heavensward. People may have voted for G'raha Tia due to his role in Shadowbringers - back when many including I were fans of him - rather than his meaningless slice-of-life role in Endwalker.

[Brinne]

Based on a survey of what I believe was no more than 6000 players out of Japan, which accounts for only 1 of the regions this game provides service to. In any case, he is of course largely beaten out by Emet-Selch, gee I wonder why.

Apparently Haurcefant was also quite popular on that survey if I remember correctly, despite him having contributed nothing to the story since Heavensward. People may have voted for G'raha Tia due to his role in Shadowbringers - back when many including I were fans of him - rather than his meaningless slice-of-life role in Endwalker.

G'raha Tia was also the most popular Scion, and the most popular character who wasn't an Ancient, in both of the 2ch-based polls specifically asking "favorite Endwalker NPC" that people were citing before the Famitsu poll. This idea that people are secretly sick of him is extremely wishful thinking on your part. As it turns out, for better or worse, most people like characters who are affectionate to your WoL. This was almost certainly a factor for Emet, too - and it was a factor in why selling Venat to the audience took the route that it did. It is what it is. We're the minority. It's okay. Good storytelling decisions don't have to be, and usually aren't, based around premises of "what sells" or "mass appeal."

[Aneshda]

Here comes the 50000 gil question.

Both Elidibus and Hydaelyn speak of a promise we made so long ago. Elidibus does not know to whom he made the promise and what it was. My WoL can't remember a promise either. Somehow I have the feeling that Elidibus and also Hydaelyn have promised Azem something.

Elidibus
What's it!? I have my mission!

Elidibus
I am Elidibus! And it is my duty to steer mankind and the very star upon their true course. This I swore to...to someone.

Elidibus
We spoke, and I swore...what? What did I...?

Hydaelyn
Though I knew failure after failure, by recalling thy tales---and my promise to thee---I found the strength to carry on.

Hydaelyn
Fulfill our promise. Right the wrongs committed when the world was yet whole. Silence the song of oblivion...


What have we promised ? I watched so many Cutscenes but there is no promise.

[CrownySuccubus]

When I talk about my problems with Venat and how she was portrayed, I can only hope I articulate my thoughts and observations well enough that it resonates with someone - ideally, with the team, even though it's a long shot, though it's still worthwhile even if it's with at least one other player. I'm not going to proclaim that the devs should change their approach to her because I'm pretty sure actually, tons of people dislike Venat, or whatever. That's demonstrably not true and also a sort of absurd argument if we're looking for any kind of quality storytelling decisions.

I both like and dislike Venat. I thought she was a very cool and interesting character, and I loved her charisma.

But I dislike her pseudo-Buddhist "suffering fetishism". The entire Endwalker story, for example, struck me as a constant example of "Perfection Fallacy". We're flat out told that since no civilization can achieve perfection, then they should stop striving for it. The Ea became depressed about the fact that, despite eliminating every other problem on their star, they couldn't do anything about the heat death of the universe, which led to their inevitable demise.

The premise feels laughably juvenile. Real-life academics and skeptics have long accepted the relative meaninglessness and finite measure of life for centuries, and most of them haven't shriveled into a ball of nihilism. Yes, you can't live life without some measure of suffering, but not all suffering is equal, not all suffering has the same consequences, and not all suffering is necessary. My entire problem with Endwalker's plot (and thus Venat's characterization) is that they act like it is.

[Theodric]

If nothing else, it's hilarious to me that Venat was written to be directly and indirectly responsible for pretty much every bad thing that ever happened in the story but the game just expects everybody to ignore that and instead blame the victims of various and entirely avoidable atrocities. It's a lot how when people are at their lowest point the last thing they typically want to hear is to be told to just get over it.

There's such a tonal whiplash with the way in which Garlemald is handled. I brought it up already, but I was dreading smug commentary from the Scions about how they had it coming. Instead, they were treated with dignity and respect. Which just makes it all the more jarring that the same mentality wasn't afforded to the Ancients. Even if we concede that the timeline could not be changed for fear of erasing the Sundered...there's really no reason for at least one or two of the Scions to be disgusted and have a crisis of faith.

Much in the same way as how FFX was made all the more interesting by Wakka's crisis of faith, whilst FFIX had Steiner's conflicting loyalty to Queen Brahne and FFVI had Celes accused of still remaining loyal to the Empire despite her defection.

Such setups allow for excellent drama and dynamics between characters. FFXIV has very little of that. The Scions all agree with each other on pretty much every subject.