What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[aveyond-dreams]

Alisaie would be the one filling that role. Whether the player interprets her admiration for the WoL as a simple girls crush, or a mentorship and inspiration, it is there nonetheless. That's it though. As far as the close company we keep anyway. I would also argue that no male is pushed onto the WoL more than Zenos.

Alisae is a child. Not an adult. I am not interested in a child having a crush on my character. There are no adult women in this game who behave the way Alisae or G'raha do. Zenos was insufferable from start to finish. Never make another villain like that.

This cast at present is too stale to carry me through a 7.0 in a setting that doesn't click with me on top of the moralizing and nation-toppling agendas that would inevitably come from the likes of the Scions.

The events of Endwalker have robbed the world of the elements that made it interesting to be in, the Empire, the Ascians, and the Gods, and now we are left with the Scions, a community that feels that Meracydia must=Africa/Australia and that the New World must=the Americas, the twitter fandom surrounding G'raha and Y'shtola, and people who believe that "ugh another castle/European nation would be boring."

Forgive me for being a little abrasive here, but I promise you with absolute certainty that nobody here is that concerned about making sure you keep paying.

Is the goal of SE to sell me their product or not? Is their goal not to keep me paying my sub? The interesting things that brought me here and got me to stay are done and resolved-I didn't come here for a visual novel where nothing of consequence happens in niche settings I fundamentally have little interest in compared to Ishgard or Garlemald.

[Gemina]

Alisae is a child. Not an adult. I am not interested in a child having a crush on my character. There are no adult women in this game who behave the way Alisae or G'raha do. Zenos was insufferable from start to finish. Never make another villain like that.

Alisaie is a fictional character, in a fictional universe. I can't recall a single NPC in the game refer to Alisaie and Aphinaud as children except in the context of when being referred to as the offspring of their parents, or it is very sporadic. Them being children also has not excluded them on being at the forefront of the chaos and destruction they oppose either. Even if technically children in the world of FFXIV, these events would rob them of their childhood and force them into adult situations and decisions; hence making them grow up at a much faster rate from a maturity standpoint. IOW, don't be surprised if either of them could develop romantic feelings for the WoL, or anyone else for that matter. I would suggest keeping the pedo adversity at bay in order to keep things in the context of FFXIV.

As for older female NPCs fawning over the WoL. No there really isn't outside of headcanon, but I see it as it is just how the chips have fell rather than deliberately avoiding it. That doesn't mean that it's not in the cards, but I also don't see much difference in shoehorning an NPC to adore or hate the WoL, male or female, if you feel they are being forced on you. Also, Zenos is subjective. Not everyone despises him as you do.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Alisaie is a fictional character, in a fictional universe. I can't recall a single NPC in the game refer to Alisaie and Aphinaud as children except in the context of when being referred to as the offspring of their parents, or it is very sporadic. Them being children also has not excluded them on being at the forefront of the chaos and destruction they oppose either. Even if technically children in the world of FFXIV, these events would rob them of their childhood and force them into adult situations and decisions; hence making them grow up at a much faster rate from a maturity standpoint. IOW, don't be surprised if either of them could develop romantic feelings for the WoL, or anyone else for that matter. I would suggest keeping the pedo adversity at bay in order to keep things in the context of FFXIV.

As for older female NPCs fawning over the WoL. No there really isn't outside of headcanon, but I see it as it is just how the chips have fell rather than deliberately avoiding it. That doesn't mean that it's not in the cards, but I also don't see much difference in shoehorning an NPC to adore or hate the WoL, male or female, if you feel they are being forced on you. Also, Zenos is subjective. Not everyone despises him as you do.

They are, for all intents and purposes, children. Theyre what, 16? 17? Not even 18. Personally i feel uncomfortable to have anyone fawning over me who i dislike and not having the option to tell them to keep their distance, but its especially worse when its an underage child. It does weird me out though that the devs refer to both of them as husbando/waifu, and then theres the whole problem with Shiva Ryne but thats a whole other can of worms entirely.

[Gemina]

They are, for all intents and purposes, children. Theyre what, 16? 17? Not even 18. Personally i feel uncomfortable to have anyone fawning over me who i dislike and not having the option to tell them to keep their distance, but its especially worse when its an underage child. It does weird me out though that the devs refer to both of them as husbando/waifu, and then theres the whole problem with Shiva Ryne but thats a whole other can of worms entirely.

16, 17, 18 means nothing. You're talking like our prohibitions and laws apply in this world. They don't unless specified that they do. Otherwise they are arbitrary at best. It's fine if it makes you uncomfortable, and it is understandable if it does. But they are fictional characters dude, and makes zero sense to me how people are ok with children risking their lives in battles where the odds are against them, but all of sudden cringe at the knees because a young NPC has an innocent crush on your character. Do you not see how backwards this is?

Ryne isn't much different. She's a teenager, and could easily develop a crush on the WoL, Gaia, or one of the other Scions or adult males/females on the first. The line gets crossed when it is an adult that has desires or pursues a younger NPC. However, teenagers developing crushes on adults is totally friggin normal bud, and happens all the time. I know we live in clown world now, but that is the actual reality.

[Brinne]

Is the goal of SE to sell me their product or not? Is their goal not to keep me paying my sub? The interesting things that brought me here and got me to stay are done and resolved-I didn't come here for a visual novel where nothing of consequence happens in niche settings I fundamentally have little interest in compared to Ishgard or Garlemald.

A slightly modified quote from earlier in the thread that seems relevant:

I see no reason to deny your wishes but I also see no reason as to why they should take priority over the widespread appeal that G'raha Tia has. Perhaps his overwhelming presence in the game is because a lot of people are interested in seeing him.

Do you see how the fallacy works, here? No one is particularly wrapped up in whether you as an individual continue paying your sub. The issue is when you proclaim your own interests align with the "widespread appeal," which should take priority. If we're speaking for SE, well, G'raha is the second most popular NPC in the series, and the opinion that he should be pulled back is a definite minority, so where does the "they should go with what sells and what appeals to me, the spokesperson for what has widespread appeal" start and end?

When I talk about my problems with Venat and how she was portrayed, I can only hope I articulate my thoughts and observations well enough that it resonates with someone - ideally, with the team, even though it's a long shot, though it's still worthwhile even if it's with at least one other player. I'm not going to proclaim that the devs should change their approach to her because I'm pretty sure actually, tons of people dislike Venat, or whatever. That's demonstrably not true and also a sort of absurd argument if we're looking for any kind of quality storytelling decisions.

[aveyond-dreams]

A slightly modified quote from earlier in the thread that seems relevant:



Do you see how the fallacy works, here?

Do you not understand that G'raha Tia is now becoming a detraction rather than a meaningful addition in peoples eyes and that a continued focus on characters like him while the elements that sold me on this game are resolved and removed will ultimately cause SE to fail in the goal of getting me to keep giving them money for this game?

But thank you for bringing up the subject of settings again, despite the conversation having largely moved on from that.

If SE decides to turn completely turn over the world to the twitter fandom who are willing to tolerate niche settings far removed from Garlemald and Ishgard along with their plushie characters, so be it. I just pray that they release FFXVI first so I have something else to do. Stranger of Paradise with Jack was great fun, hopefully Clive will provide a more fleshed out experience in his mainline title game.

[Brinne]

Do you not understand that G'raha Tia is now becoming a detraction rather than a meaningful addition in peoples eyes and that a continued focus on characters like him while the elements that sold me on this game are resolved and removed will ultimately cause SE to fail in the goal of getting me to keep giving them money for this game?

G'raha Tia is the second most popular NPC in the game, so I'm not sure who "people" are. If it's you and the people you know, cool! That's not going to be much of a marketing factor on its own compared to the thousands of people who voted for him in the polls and love him, though, if we want to truly take the angle of "marketing" and "sales" as our argumentative stance.

[aveyond-dreams]

G'raha Tia is the second most popular NPC in the game.

Based on a survey of what I believe was no more than 6000 players out of Japan, which accounts for only 1 of the regions this game provides service to. In any case, he is of course largely beaten out by Emet-Selch, gee I wonder why.

Apparently Haurcefant was also quite popular on that survey if I remember correctly, despite him having contributed nothing to the story since Heavensward. People may have voted for G'raha Tia due to his role in Shadowbringers - back when many including I were fans of him - rather than his meaningless slice-of-life role in Endwalker.

[Brinne]

Based on a survey of what I believe was no more than 6000 players out of Japan, which accounts for only 1 of the regions this game provides service to. In any case, he is of course largely beaten out by Emet-Selch, gee I wonder why.

Apparently Haurcefant was also quite popular on that survey if I remember correctly, despite him having contributed nothing to the story since Heavensward. People may have voted for G'raha Tia due to his role in Shadowbringers - back when many including I were fans of him - rather than his meaningless slice-of-life role in Endwalker.

G'raha Tia was also the most popular Scion, and the most popular character who wasn't an Ancient, in both of the 2ch-based polls specifically asking "favorite Endwalker NPC" that people were citing before the Famitsu poll. This idea that people are secretly sick of him is extremely wishful thinking on your part. As it turns out, for better or worse, most people like characters who are affectionate to your WoL. This was almost certainly a factor for Emet, too - and it was a factor in why selling Venat to the audience took the route that it did. It is what it is. We're the minority. It's okay. Good storytelling decisions don't have to be, and usually aren't, based around premises of "what sells" or "mass appeal."

[Rulakir]

As it turns out, for better or worse, most people like characters who are affectionate to your WoL. This was almost certainly a factor for Emet, too - and it was a factor in why selling Venat to the audience took the route that it did. It is what it is. We're the minority. It's okay.

Am I the only anti-Venat person who likes G'raha? D:

Is it not just human nature? Even in real life I'm going to be fond of people who treat me warmly. Why would I not love a character who refers to me as their "new old friend" or another who went behind the Convocation's back to create a memory crystal for my original incarnation that he carried with him for millennia? Conversely, despite Venat's fascination with the WoL in Elpis, I think people too easily forget that she deliberately inflicted harm upon Azem and under no circumstances will I ever believe Azem consented to being sundered.

I can understand being put off by the hero worship, like I said it makes you wonder if G'raha would like us if we weren't the WoL (although someone mentioned he liked us during the CT raids when he was unaware of our exploits). Unfortunately, I'll never understand Haurchefant not only due to being subjected to the western revision but because his archetype isn't one we're used to in the west that I've heard is popular in Japan.