What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Brinne]

Is the goal of SE to sell me their product or not? Is their goal not to keep me paying my sub? The interesting things that brought me here and got me to stay are done and resolved-I didn't come here for a visual novel where nothing of consequence happens in niche settings I fundamentally have little interest in compared to Ishgard or Garlemald.

A slightly modified quote from earlier in the thread that seems relevant:

I see no reason to deny your wishes but I also see no reason as to why they should take priority over the widespread appeal that G'raha Tia has. Perhaps his overwhelming presence in the game is because a lot of people are interested in seeing him.

Do you see how the fallacy works, here? No one is particularly wrapped up in whether you as an individual continue paying your sub. The issue is when you proclaim your own interests align with the "widespread appeal," which should take priority. If we're speaking for SE, well, G'raha is the second most popular NPC in the series, and the opinion that he should be pulled back is a definite minority, so where does the "they should go with what sells and what appeals to me, the spokesperson for what has widespread appeal" start and end?

When I talk about my problems with Venat and how she was portrayed, I can only hope I articulate my thoughts and observations well enough that it resonates with someone - ideally, with the team, even though it's a long shot, though it's still worthwhile even if it's with at least one other player. I'm not going to proclaim that the devs should change their approach to her because I'm pretty sure actually, tons of people dislike Venat, or whatever. That's demonstrably not true and also a sort of absurd argument if we're looking for any kind of quality storytelling decisions.

[aveyond-dreams]

A slightly modified quote from earlier in the thread that seems relevant:



Do you see how the fallacy works, here?

Do you not understand that G'raha Tia is now becoming a detraction rather than a meaningful addition in peoples eyes and that a continued focus on characters like him while the elements that sold me on this game are resolved and removed will ultimately cause SE to fail in the goal of getting me to keep giving them money for this game?

But thank you for bringing up the subject of settings again, despite the conversation having largely moved on from that.

If SE decides to turn completely turn over the world to the twitter fandom who are willing to tolerate niche settings far removed from Garlemald and Ishgard along with their plushie characters, so be it. I just pray that they release FFXVI first so I have something else to do. Stranger of Paradise with Jack was great fun, hopefully Clive will provide a more fleshed out experience in his mainline title game.

[Brinne]

Do you not understand that G'raha Tia is now becoming a detraction rather than a meaningful addition in peoples eyes and that a continued focus on characters like him while the elements that sold me on this game are resolved and removed will ultimately cause SE to fail in the goal of getting me to keep giving them money for this game?

G'raha Tia is the second most popular NPC in the game, so I'm not sure who "people" are. If it's you and the people you know, cool! That's not going to be much of a marketing factor on its own compared to the thousands of people who voted for him in the polls and love him, though, if we want to truly take the angle of "marketing" and "sales" as our argumentative stance.

[aveyond-dreams]

G'raha Tia is the second most popular NPC in the game.

Based on a survey of what I believe was no more than 6000 players out of Japan, which accounts for only 1 of the regions this game provides service to. In any case, he is of course largely beaten out by Emet-Selch, gee I wonder why.

Apparently Haurcefant was also quite popular on that survey if I remember correctly, despite him having contributed nothing to the story since Heavensward. People may have voted for G'raha Tia due to his role in Shadowbringers - back when many including I were fans of him - rather than his meaningless slice-of-life role in Endwalker.

[Brinne]

Based on a survey of what I believe was no more than 6000 players out of Japan, which accounts for only 1 of the regions this game provides service to. In any case, he is of course largely beaten out by Emet-Selch, gee I wonder why.

Apparently Haurcefant was also quite popular on that survey if I remember correctly, despite him having contributed nothing to the story since Heavensward. People may have voted for G'raha Tia due to his role in Shadowbringers - back when many including I were fans of him - rather than his meaningless slice-of-life role in Endwalker.

G'raha Tia was also the most popular Scion, and the most popular character who wasn't an Ancient, in both of the 2ch-based polls specifically asking "favorite Endwalker NPC" that people were citing before the Famitsu poll. This idea that people are secretly sick of him is extremely wishful thinking on your part. As it turns out, for better or worse, most people like characters who are affectionate to your WoL. This was almost certainly a factor for Emet, too - and it was a factor in why selling Venat to the audience took the route that it did. It is what it is. We're the minority. It's okay. Good storytelling decisions don't have to be, and usually aren't, based around premises of "what sells" or "mass appeal."

[Rulakir]

As it turns out, for better or worse, most people like characters who are affectionate to your WoL. This was almost certainly a factor for Emet, too - and it was a factor in why selling Venat to the audience took the route that it did. It is what it is. We're the minority. It's okay.

Am I the only anti-Venat person who likes G'raha? D:

Is it not just human nature? Even in real life I'm going to be fond of people who treat me warmly. Why would I not love a character who refers to me as their "new old friend" or another who went behind the Convocation's back to create a memory crystal for my original incarnation that he carried with him for millennia? Conversely, despite Venat's fascination with the WoL in Elpis, I think people too easily forget that she deliberately inflicted harm upon Azem and under no circumstances will I ever believe Azem consented to being sundered.

I can understand being put off by the hero worship, like I said it makes you wonder if G'raha would like us if we weren't the WoL (although someone mentioned he liked us during the CT raids when he was unaware of our exploits). Unfortunately, I'll never understand Haurchefant not only due to being subjected to the western revision but because his archetype isn't one we're used to in the west that I've heard is popular in Japan.

[Brinne]

Am I the only anti-Venat person who likes G'raha? D:

Oh, G'raha is fine. I don't mind him, but I wouldn't consider him one of my favorites, is all. But we are also definitely in the minority when it comes to Venat - in those 2ch polls where G'raha did well, Venat was also #3 and #2, in sequence. Alas. At least the best of best friends, Zenos, moved up several places between the two polls!

As far as the WoL goes, I actually generally really love the feeling of collaboration between the game's writing and my input to create a personal character for myself. I like the capacity for my WoL to surprise me in how they react, and feel like they have some degree of agency that gets my imagination running. Of course, I totally understand dissonance - I rolled my eyes at my WoL playing nice with Merlwyb all the way back from ARR, and I probably don't need to elaborate further on Venat. I also didn't like Hien or Gaius, two other people that the WoL liked or learned to get along with. Venat, though, is the only one that was sort of a game-breaker, of sorts, to me - the rest weren't a huge deal, or I could otherwise rationalize it. I don't feel the need to be on the exact same page with my opinions on events or characters as my WoL, necessarily, most of the time.

[CrownySuccubus]

When I talk about my problems with Venat and how she was portrayed, I can only hope I articulate my thoughts and observations well enough that it resonates with someone - ideally, with the team, even though it's a long shot, though it's still worthwhile even if it's with at least one other player. I'm not going to proclaim that the devs should change their approach to her because I'm pretty sure actually, tons of people dislike Venat, or whatever. That's demonstrably not true and also a sort of absurd argument if we're looking for any kind of quality storytelling decisions.

I both like and dislike Venat. I thought she was a very cool and interesting character, and I loved her charisma.

But I dislike her pseudo-Buddhist "suffering fetishism". The entire Endwalker story, for example, struck me as a constant example of "Perfection Fallacy". We're flat out told that since no civilization can achieve perfection, then they should stop striving for it. The Ea became depressed about the fact that, despite eliminating every other problem on their star, they couldn't do anything about the heat death of the universe, which led to their inevitable demise.

The premise feels laughably juvenile. Real-life academics and skeptics have long accepted the relative meaninglessness and finite measure of life for centuries, and most of them haven't shriveled into a ball of nihilism. Yes, you can't live life without some measure of suffering, but not all suffering is equal, not all suffering has the same consequences, and not all suffering is necessary. My entire problem with Endwalker's plot (and thus Venat's characterization) is that they act like it is.