What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Kyohei]

Ysayle, Horse, and Papalymo all died in struggle, so they lived to the last. Whereas pre-calamity ancient could finish some paperwork, then decide that's all they can do and decide to put a .44 caliber hole in their aether, not living and self terminating.

All these sundered gave up their lives to create a better future for the star.
All the ancients that wished to return to the star did so after they had struggled to make the star better.
What's the difference? That they still had life years? All of them still had life years to spend, they simply chose not to.
The sundered give up their lives in hope of a better tomorrow, the ancient retired after being sure there will be one.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Alright so from reading some posts here I do indeed have gotten some parts or interpretations wrong; especially regarding Venat confronting the Convocation. For that I apologize. However I did went back and looked at certain cutscenes to make sure I'm not overlooking anything and this is what I found regarding the arguments against Venat's decisions. This is dialogue that happens right after the WoL and her escape Ktsis Hyperboreia:

"With Meteion free to pursue her designs, 'tis only a matter of time until the Final Days are upon us. In spite of this, we cannot allow the report that set this calamity in motion to become common knowledge. Were the masses to learn the fates of the other stars, I fear the situation would spiral out of our control. I must carefully consider who can be trusted, and bring them into the fold. Ordinarily, I wouldnt hesitate to call upon the Fourteen. However, it was the desire for a fair determination that drove Hermes to attempt to erase our memories; were he made aware of his actions, there is no telling whether he would remain a friend or become a foe. Alternately, we might try to alienate him from the Convocation. Yet in doing so, we would deprive ourselves of a brilliant mind who would be invaluable in the crises to come. Quite the dilemma....Which is why I must work independently of the Convocation. Regardless of how we proceed, if we are to permanently avert the Final Days, we must be equal to Hermes's challenge. We must prove that mankind is worthy to exist."

Pretty much explains her thought-process with what to do with the knowledge. There were numerous variables that could happen that would cause the situation to get worse. The Ancients were a sheltered lot who knew only bliss and paradise. For the public to be told of Meteion's report, there's no telling how many people would act and would've caused their creation magicks to spiral out of control due to despair. Granted not everyone would act crazy, we see that in Emet and Hyth, which is why Venat said she had to choose who to tell carefully.

[Caurcas]

Ah, so your problem is that the Ancients didn't suffer enough in death? Would it have been more acceptable if they had chosen to fling themselves into a pit of vicious monsters instead of choosing when and where they wished to pass on peacefully?

Weird take away, but no. My issue is them literally throwing away their lives prior to calamity, via self termination. Furthermore, the fact this irony that the Unsundered long so for their loved ones and the lives they had prior when they used to do this flies over so many people's head in these arguments is frustrating.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Weird take away, but no. My issue is them literally throwing away their lives prior to calamity, via self termination. Furthermore, the fact this irony that the Unsundered long so for their loved ones and the lives they had prior when they used to do this flies over so many people's head in these arguments is frustrating.

You act like they were killing themselves after a hundred or so years. They lived an incredibly long time. Barring that though what does any of that have to do with them longing for their loved ones. Being in Zodiark meant them being unable to reincarnate or pass on the right way, some l thing they held dear. Those two things don’t really correlate at all. The Ancients from how i read it, passed on when they saw they had nothing much more to offer and to give their position to someone that would help flourish the star more, where they then would turn to reincarnation and start anew.

Nowhere in the recent Q&A did Yoshi-P stated that Hyadaelyn/Venat consumed the souls completely till there was nothing left.
Here's the link to the worded Q&A if you dont believe me https://novacrystallis.com/2022/02/f...dmap-detailed/

Unless were talking about the initial summoning then probably yeah considering the nature of the summoning. But the point still stands that she wasnt going around consuming souls of the sundered shards. Otherwise there wouldnt be a lifestream and the recycling of sundered souls wouldnt have happened.

Also lets not forget what was actually asked in that interview:

Question- "Was Venat sundering the star truly the only way to save it?"
Answer - "Yoshida consulted with Ishikawa, and says as Y’shtola theorized that the Ancients were so dense in aether that they could not control dynamis. Other Ancients concluded that Zodiark was the solution to Meteion’s song of oblivion, but Venat concluded that they could not change as a people and would be their own undoing."

So ok looks like the Ancients or at least a good portion of them DID knew of Meteion and the song of oblivion....but the Convocation still chose to preserve their "perfect world" in a futile attempt to keep what they had. This is why I was asking you guys that question earlier.....if the sundering didnt happen and Zodiark was the only one there, what would've that seriously accomplished.

Anyway people here need to go back and look at that Q&A again because it seriously looks like a lot of folk are just overly reading into things.

Yes, i meant the initial summoning. She consumed their souls and effectively erased them, something not even Zodiark did.She wasnt going around consuming souls after that(unless you count minfilia) but neither was Zodiark so im curious where you're getting he would just continuously suck up souls.

As far as that quote goes, i think you're misinterpreting it. We know the convocation and the people who summoned Zodiark didnt know of Meteion afaik. It seems hes describing that from a narration point of view, using it to describe the situation.How was it a futile attempt exactly? Them doing that is what makes the world exist as it is today. As someone else said, Zodiark was shielding the world for 12,000 years and a lot of that was after being sundered. If Venat had told them the truth and they used that time to come up with a solution i think its very easy to surmise theyd had been able to find a way. I tjink a lot of folks arent reading enough tbh. It seems people neef to go and play through ShB and EW again because theres some very common misconceptions like Zodiark being a blood god that is very quickly disproven.

[Skyborne]

The Zenos philosophy... he's a fun(ny) character but I don't agree with it even if I understand it (also will be very surprised if he/his avatar is actually dead and doesn't pop up the next patch). Or Venat's, as Brinne laid out. To each their own, however, I think people can do what they want with their lives. People don't need to constantly fight each other like Saiyans to have meaningful lives. Suffering being reduced even if it's not totally eliminated like the Ancients succeeded in is nice and cool. All I wanna do is sip my energy drinks, create sharks with mammaries, and grill with Emet-Selch, for Zodiark's sake. Then Ra-La 5 minutes later, which is sad, I guess? Not my problem.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Also afterwards she says this:

"And this hinges, I think, on how we confront the all-consuming despair that accompanies a senseless and seemingly inevitable end. Bewildered and divided, we would perish like the peoples of those celestial ruins. We could not hope to survive the Final Days, much less take the battle to Meteion at her nest. We must find a way to defeat despair. To unite and prepare as many as possible for the struggle ahead."

So yeah she did told people about the situation before the first Final Days happened. But realistically the Ancients would'nt have been strong enough in both heart and mind in their current state (as well as their lack of controlling dynamis) to be able to survive Ultima Thule and confront Meteion. Even if they knew how to create entelechies, it would've been seriously flawed due to the proper lack of understanding suffering and using that as a strength rather than a weakness like Meteion chose. Which is why despite everything, the sundering had to happen. Not only for the people of Etheryis to be able to control and use dynamis but for their own development to eventually find the answer and strength needed to combat the song of Oblivion.

[Kyohei]

All those reasons fail in a logical way when compared to many other things weighting on the balance, PawPaw cited a good lot of them.
She did not tell them, again see to Shadowbringers. No ancient knew, no ascians knew. What you cited is Venat's thought process of "ifs". What she ended up with is a close group of people that summoned Hydaelyn.
Everything about the lack of suffering is from Venat's personal convictions, it's from her lenses only that the story speaks of that, not a broad generality. If we talk about that ancient in Venat's cutscene, compared to the Final days of course their world was blissful. If such a calamity with impending doom were to happen to any world, I'm pretty sure anyone would want their old world back and think of it as the best it ever was. Look at covid and how people just wanted things "back to how they were", and it's not nearly the same level as general destruction brought by the Final days nor close to its horror.
The ancient were as varied as sundered mankind with only a life system in common. We can see with Hermes that they can have deep, even devouring emotions too. It would be very strange for him to be the only one, except he is one that can't deal with it properly and with maturity. So even if they can't manipulate dynamis, they very well can create beings not necessarily flawed. Nothing supports "lack of understanding suffering" other than simply the story giving you this at face value as a way to justify itself and make one look away from inconsistencies.
The ancient not being strong enough in heart and mind fails too as an argument when you have ascians struggling for 12k years bearing the weight to bring back what they promised to their brethren, and on the other side Venat becoming Hydaelyn also is proof they do have what it takes.
All in all, narration fails on a logical level. The substance might not be bad, but it was handled poorly with many flaws and contradictions that leave opening for finding it lacking.

[KizuyaKatogami]

All those reasons fail in a logical way when compared to many other things weighting on the balance, PawPaw cited a good lot of them.
She did not tell them, again see to Shadowbringers. No ancient knew, no ascians knew. What you cited is Venat's thought process of "ifs". What she ended up with is a close group of people that summoned Hydaelyn.
Everything about the lack of suffering is from Venat's personal convictions, it's from her lenses only that the story speaks of that, not a broad generality. If we talk about that ancient in Venat's cutscene, compared to the Final days of course their world was blissful. If such a calamity with impending doom were to happen to any world, I'm pretty sure anyone would want their old world back and think of it as the best it ever was. Look at covid and how people just wanted things "back to how they were", and it's not nearly the same level as general destruction brought by the Final days nor close to its horror.
The ancient were as varied as sundered mankind with only a life system in common. We can see with Hermes that they can have deep, even devouring emotions too. It would be very strange from him to be the only one, except he is one that can't deal with it properly and with maturity. So even if they can't manipulate dynamis, they very well can create beings not necessarily flawed. Nothing supports "lack of understanding suffering" other than simply the story giving you this at face value as a way to justify itself and make one look away from inconsistencies.
The ancient not being strong enough in heart and mind fails too as an argument when you have ascians struggling for 12k years alone to bring back what they promised to their brethren, and on the other side Venat becoming Hydaelyn also is proof they do have what it takes.
All in all, narration fails on a logical level. The substance might not be bad, but it was handled poorly with many flaws and contradictions that leave opening for finding it lacking.

Exactly. Marking the ancients off as just perfect and bliss and knowing no suffering is just wrong. We're shown this in numerous ways.

Also afterwards she says this:

"And this hinges, I think, on how we confront the all-consuming despair that accompanies a senseless and seemingly inevitable end. Bewildered and divided, we would perish like the peoples of those celestial ruins. We could not hope to survive the Final Days, much less take the battle to Meteion at her nest. We must find a way to defeat despair. To unite and prepare as many as possible for the struggle ahead."

So yeah she did told people about the situation before the first Final Days happened. But realistically the Ancients would'nt have been strong enough in both heart and mind in their current state (as well as their lack of controlling dynamis) to be able to survive Ultima Thule and confront Meteion. Even if they knew how to create entelechies, it would've been seriously flawed due to the proper lack of understanding suffering and using that as a strength rather than a weakness like Meteion chose. Which is why despite everything, the sundering had to happen. Not only for the people of Etheryis to be able to control and use dynamis but for their own development to eventually find the answer and strength needed to combat the song of Oblivion.

In regards to Venat's reasoning, she didnt even need to necessarily tell everyone. She could keep it from Hermes and only speak to the convocation and a select trustable few in her own friend group. Should hemes somehow find out...pandemonium exists. The ancients have so many tools at their disposal it isnt even funny. Venat, for all the preaching she does about uniting with her people, about having hope, lost hope in her own people, didnt tell them the truth until it was too late, and then bargained the entire world's future on a single person.The sundering didnt need to happen. What needed to happen was her telling them the truth and them actually uniting as she said, towards a common goal. We see they are able to manipulate dynamis to a degree. They have a facility they could use to hone said powers if given the chance. The fact is they werent given that chance.

[Kyohei]

Exactly. Marking the ancients off as just perfect and bliss and knowing no suffering is just wrong. We're shown this in numerous ways.





In regards to Venat's reasoning, she didnt even need to necessarily tell everyone. She could keep it from Hermes and only speak to the convocation and a select trustable few in her own friend group. Should hemes somehow find out...pandemonium exists. The ancients have so many tools at their disposal it isnt even funny. Venat, for all the preaching she does about uniting with her people, about having hope, lost hope in her own people, didnt tell them the truth until it was too late, and then bargained the entire world's future on a single person.The sundering didnt need to happen. What needed to happen was her telling them the truth and them actually uniting as she said, towards a common goal. We see they are able to manipulate dynamis to a degree. They have a facility they could use to hone said powers if given the chance. The fact is they werent given that chance.

I would add that the representation of the sundered people she saw in Elpis is the WoL, which is by no means a fair one. If, say, she saw Valens instead, do you think she would've went sundering option? Hmmm...
Or for more fairness because Valens is kind of on the other edge of the spectrum, an eorzean suffering outside of Ul'dah's gate. Simply living day to day trying to find how to eat without a care for the broader world because they cannot afford to. I very much doubt such a person would have inspired "hope in sundered". Yet they are the majority while the WoL is one of a kind, who actually died in a previous timeline too.

[PawPaw]

snip

Thanks for providing your quotes. My issue with this, with all of this is that what you just posted is what Venat thinks will happen. It is not objectively what would happen were people made aware of the truth. In the video, Yoshi-P says that everything happens because Venat believes they can't do better. That she believes they cannot stop it at the source. They don't need to go to UT and confront Meteion. We are told that the Ancients themselves are too aether-dense to interact with Dynamis and I accept that; but they are also gods who can create anything. If a Meteion entity can be created by one man then there is zero reason for me to believe, based on the evidence that I have seen in the game, that an entity could not be created that could counter Meteion. And in the meantime, they devise a way to create a shield to protect themselves in the short term. A shield that doesn't require you to sacrifice 50% of your population.

It makes absolutely no sense for me to suddenly suspend my disbelief and accept that the Ancients are now randomly idiots who are incapable of intelligent decisions. Dynamis is not widely known about in their society but it is also not the sole knowledge of one man, had the wider world known of the issue there is no reason to believe that those who did know about it couldn't have tried to find a solution. All they needed to know is what we're told almost immediately upon meeting Hermes and Meteion. That Dynamis is weaker than aether. Not telling them because of Hermes is...so weak. What on earth could he possibly do at that point? With Emet-Selch's memories restored they wouldn't need his knowledge and Venat herself says at one point that she has heard of Dynamis before. Was he going to take on the entire Convocation? Stick him in Pandemonium if you're truly afraid he could be a danger and get on with protecting your world.

Imagine the WoL learning all they do about Zodiark and Meteion and, instead of sharing that knowledge with the Alliance leaders they just lock themselves in the Rising Stones because they don't want to cause a panic. It's dumb, right?

The writers have given us this official reasoning for her actions and inaction and I'm sure they thought that this was a solid resolution. But the reason I continue to question their story choices is that based on what they themselves have shown me in their story up until this point, it makes no sense whatsoever. This is only my opinion but at the end of the day, they are asking me to roll over and accept that this logically preventable event is now to be completely unpreventable just because of one person's subjective opinion. That there is no other way it could have been resolved. In this world where really, almost anything is possible.