A thought of inviduality to jobs

[MagicalChase]

hey it's their way of playing.
Maybe he felt playing that way that day.

Though I do have another story.

this week in NN,
a sprout asked.
I like ROG, can I play as ROG to cap?

I'm curious. What would you tell him?

“Sadly this game doesn’t allow builds”
Still a false equivalency, lol

[hagare]

Ninja is rogue 2, its only not rogue in name. I'd tell them that but personally I am not annoyed by people not having job stones for normal content since... normal content is braindead anyways lol.

interesting
at least you're consistent.

“Sadly this game doesn’t allow builds”
Still a false equivalency, lol

First point, false. Job crystal isn't mandatory. ROGs don't have to upgrade to NIN. Otherwise there won't be a thread complaining about people not using it.
second point, also false. This is literally a sprout asking if he can play the way he wants to. A point you are championing. Though said way will make other people work more to cover his share.

[MagicalChase]

interesting
at least you're consistent.



First point, false. Job crystal isn't mandatory. ROGs don't have to upgrade to NIN. Otherwise there won't be a thread complaining about people not using it.
second point, also false. This is literally a sprout asking if he can play the way he wants to. A point you are championing. Though said way will make other people work more to cover his share.

The difference is I wouldn’t kick the rogue and you’re implying you would. So.I too am not bothered by it either

[TaleraRistain]

If you were doing a group project, and one person botched their portion of the work because they simply didn't feel like studying, you probably wouldn't be super enthused about the situation. If you were given a choice of partner and knew that someone had a pattern of that kind of behavior, you probably wouldn't want to select them the next time around.

Swift-cast was and still is considered a vital recovery tool, and has consistently been indispensable during progression, where you may not have enough time to slow-cast a rez that could otherwise keep the run going and allow you to progress further into the fight (or even clear). Deciding you didn't want that skill put your group at an immediate disadvantage, so it was sensible in a lot of cases that people wouldn't want to group with someone who didn't have access to the skill. The same goes for Provoke.

This is exactly the sort of mentality I'm talking about. There was no game requirement for any cross class skill. Healers could raise in dungeons without Swiftcast. It just took longer. But even in dungeons healers would get flamed for not having it. To use your group project example, the head of the project wants all submissions from the others by X date so they can compile it all together into the finalized report. Everyone except one person submits theirs early and they all harass that person because they didn't submit theirs early, too, but were still within the requested time given.

I don't think getting rid of the cross class system they had was bad. Swiftcast is useful and it's much better as a role skill. But the community and meta mentality is why we can't have systems like it that may be implemented more effectively because it doesn't matter how effectively they implement it. Someone will find the meta and people will harass others if they deviate from it.

[hagare]

The difference is I wouldn’t kick the rogue and you’re implying you would. So.I too am not bothered by it either

the question was. what would you tell him.
I'll tell you what I told him after you stop avoiding the question.

[LittleImp]

This is exactly the sort of mentality I'm talking about. There was no game requirement for any cross class skill.

Many games don't have hardcoded requirements for players to do something, but are still designed with the expectation that they will. It's like entering Savage with unmelded gear simply because the game doesn't require you to meld before entry, or refusing to do class quests and unlock skills because you're still technically able to queue into content without them. Like class quests, cross class skills were essentially just an alternative way to obtain otherwise critical skills.

Healers could raise in dungeons without Swiftcast. It just took longer. But even in dungeons healers would get flamed for not having it.

Honestly, the only times I remember this kind of thing happening were because the lack of swift-cast lead to a wipe or otherwise severe and noticeable consequences after the tank died. People are only going to notice it if it suddenly becomes relevant to their experience for some reason.

To use your group project example, the head of the project wants all submissions from the others by X date so they can compile it all together into the finalized report. Everyone except one person submits theirs early and they all harass that person because they didn't submit theirs early, too, but were still within the requested time given.

Interacting with a basic game system in an intended way is not really comparable to going above-and-beyond. Part of the reason cross-class was such a mistake is because many of the skills had a SIGNIFICANT impact and should have just been baseline from the start, which they rectified later. Swiftcast made the cut and became baseline because it was clearly perceived as a critical element of healer kits by the developers.

But the community and meta mentality is why we can't have systems like it that may be implemented more effectively because it doesn't matter how effectively they implement it. Someone will find the meta and people will harass others if they deviate from it.

I don't wholly disagree with the notion that community attitudes are part of why kit customization is a bad idea, but it's also important to differentiate between harassment and people simply being uninterested in grouping with someone.

[Nekokaori]

Why are you a level 57 Archer?

Please equip your jobstone, so you don't drag down other people you party with.

A. I purposely selected archar on here although i using bard because without foe requirm its not a bard anyways.

B. Even if i did that i wouldnt give a fuck cuz they can go to hell.

C. Im not even using it anymore outside msq let qs lol

[MagicalChase]

the question was. what would you tell him.
I'll tell you what I told him after you stop avoiding the question.

But I’m not avoiding the question I told you what I would say, I just wouldn’t care if they just played rogue anyway.

[Nekokaori]

Merit points were just a continuation of a grind for players that reached level 75. In the grand scheme of things they didn't change anything.

FFXI elemental weaknesses became a problem immediately with players stacking blms. Guess what they did? Added a buff to mobs who quickly gained resistance to that element making them mostly pointless. It's better to make them a mechanic for the jobs design like in xiv than to do what XI did.



There were specs for the entirety of BFA that were completely unplayable. Say what you will about ffxiv dps spread, but every job is viable and none require a carry.



Tell me genius, how will you do a tank swap without provoke?

You could make a group all you want. The minute people found out you didn't have provoke they would leave the group

But to answer your question by giving them something else..

Make berserk multiple their emity gain or give it a rage moding making all attacks stronger, less aquited and gain faster emity output...

U know all tanks use to have their own way to stun and dot scourge, fracture etc its not that hard to do that..

Just like sch use to have leechs so didnt need esuna

[Shurrikhan]

If you were doing a group project, and one person botched their portion of the work because they simply didn't feel like studying, you probably wouldn't be super enthused about the situation. If you were given a choice of partner and knew that someone had a pattern of that kind of behavior, you probably wouldn't want to select them the next time around.

Swift-cast was and still is considered a vital recovery tool, and has consistently been indispensable during progression, where you may not have enough time to slow-cast a rez that could otherwise keep the run going and allow you to progress further into the fight (or even clear). Deciding you didn't want that skill put your group at an immediate disadvantage, so it was sensible in a lot of cases that people wouldn't want to group with someone who didn't have access to the skill. The same goes for Provoke.

Except, in this case, it's more like "some people might not prepare for the group project, or bring less than the most fitting ideas forward, so let's reduce our goals for the assignment as not to need anyone to prepare," ignoring that what can thereby be gained is similarly reduced.
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To be clear, I'm fine with cross-class skills being gone. They weren't cohesive with job choice -- instead merely feeling tacked on. I'll admit, there were some enjoyably RPG elements to it, and I liked that it gave reason to sample other classes, but those benefits could be had with less systems-based annoyance.

That said, the problems and toxicity of having acquired Swiftcast (via a lv26 THM) is still as about as deeply felt today for, say, just playing WHM or MCH -- or, until the most recent balancing patch, a NIN, SMN, PLD, or DRG. People still foamed at the mouth over people playing Ad Hoc Samurai in ShB even during the time that playstyle's performance still typically outranked that of the next best melee DPS job. Where do we draw the line on what is reasonable?
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As for the question of balance and diversity, let us consider two games by way of example:

• The first has diverse fights for which some classes are better than for certain parts and/or functions. Over a given period of gearing/progression, it's not uncommon that certain compositions would be favored for certain fights over others. However, the preferred compositions are far from stagnant; specific interest being made towards ensuring that (aside from the "meta" perhaps favoring adaptable but non-optimal comfort picks that are easier to coordinate in PuGs) a job most advantaged in any one fight of a tier is not most advantaged across that whole tier on average. Class depth, moreover, is sufficient that players can rarely switch from playing their few chosen classes to playing others at the highest level, meaning that there's an opportunity (learning) cost to swapping to the meta class for a given fight, with masters frequently changing what's considered most advantaged in a given fight anyways. Performance is highly varied with the given encounter, composition, and player skill, but a 'lower-performing' job --though still filling a vital function, and perhaps more reliably or responsively than an optimized choice-- can see easily see large (20-33%) differences in throughput.
  
  
• The second has procedurally very similar fights as not to shake up class performance or thereby favor any particular jobs over others. The jobs, moreover, play very similarly, especially within their given roles, in order to keep their performance as tight as possible (within 15% from max to min, or within ~7% when excluding the very best and very worst). However, the favored jobs do not tend to change often; their performance advantage may merely shrink or increase over particular patches or tiers.

In which game is it more reasonable to say "Play what you like; there will always be a use for the class in the long run"?