What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[PawPaw]

I can't even say EW is good if you don't think about it because even on a surface level knowing an apocalypse is coming and not forewarning the people who could do something about it is wrong on every level no matter how many excuses you try to make otherwise.

I think most people aren't thinking about these things on the surface level of their first playthrough though. They likely like Venat because she's pretty cool until you start to think about her actions. And most people aren't actually thinking about the greater implications of her actions in the moment. This is what happened to me with mine. It was good for me because I turned my brain off and did exactly what the writers wanted me to do which was "roll with it" and not think about it logically; Get swept away with their emotional music and don't think about the implications and thus, I enjoyed it!

Now? When I think about the complete and utter cringe factor of making "Life is Suffering" a key theme of a game, I laugh out loud. But I didn't feel that way immediately and it took me a bit to piece together what I knew about the Final Days and how I had already been told that no one knew the cause of it which therefore logically meant that she had withheld info from her people and thus doomed them all. They don't give you time to stop and ponder that stuff. It's like a Michael Bay movie. Here are some dramatic explosions to distract you from the fact that this story has more holes in it than fishnet stockings.

I also took her at her word that she would choose who to tell and always fight for her world and that nothing was impossible. It irked me that she was allowing Hermes to get away with it, but again I went along with it like they wanted me to. I enjoyed the game so much after that first time that I thought about it constantly! And I am thankful for that because all of that thinking is what made me realize what an absolute manipulative mess it is. I never liked Hermes and was pissed when I saw him included in the closing credits but the full picture of what Venat had done to her people and her manipulation of us since Day One didn't hit home immediately.

It's funny how often people bring up Zenos' line about whether his actions would have been acceptable had they met with our approval, but never point out how that applies perfectly to Venat. Her betrayal of her people and genocide seems to be acceptable and accepted because it benefits the player character. The dev team and her fans will jump through hoops to try to justify it but at the end of the day, she's not a hero because her travesty worked out in my favor. She did something absolutely villainous and will always be a villain to me.

[Rulakir]

We're never allowed to explore any possibilities that aren't either the sundering or The Plenty. The conclusions being drawn that the sundering was necessary otherwise Etheirys would've gone the way of The Plenty, which ignores a myriad of factors if not outright contradicting previous information in the story. There are essentially only those two paths and there simply isn't sufficient evidence to conclude either.

The whole foundation of the lore requires you to not think about it. The writers say this is what would've happened, so we just accept that they didn't sufficiently convey that through the story itself.

[Zarkovitch]

Adding Perfect Cell will fix this story.

[Rulakir]

They likely like Venat because she's pretty cool until you start to think about her actions.

I was thinking about her actions before EW. I knew going in that they had a challenge on their hands justifying the sundering. I thought for a brief moment with Venat's early characterization and the Ancients repeating that while nothing could change our future there was still a chance for theirs that there would be a promising resolution only for it to collapse into one of the worst time travel stories I've ever experienced.

It's funny how often people bring up Zenos' line about whether his actions would have been acceptable had they met with our approval, but never point out how that applies perfectly to Venat. Her betrayal of her people and genocide seems to be acceptable because it benefits the player character. The dev team will jump through hoops to try to justify it but at the end of the day, she's not a hero because her travesty worked out in my favor. She did something absolutely villainous and will always be a villain to me.

I both love and hate that line. I mean, if you're drop kicking a kitten I don't care if it's because you don't like cats, or it bit you, or whatever. It's cruel AF, there's no justification for it, and you're a degenerate for doing it. The issue with Venat is the narrative is essentially saying since her drop kicking a kitten benefited you*, don't you love her now? Um, no. I reject this notion that because she aids the protagonist that she is some sort of supporting protagonist. She is absolutely historically an antagonist, in fact, had the sundered failed her she would have had no problem hitting the reset button again given the opportunity. This 'love' she has is for mankind as a concept, not for specific individuals. She is practically the embodiment of "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". Just because she doesn't act out of malice doesn't mean she's ultimately a 'good guy'.

* This also ignores that she sliced, diced, and julienne fried the WoL's original incarnation. Personally, I have a huge problem with that. Why in TF would I trust someone who had already done that to me in the past (and who by all appearances would do it again without blinking an eye)? It's just bizarre. I honestly don't know what the writers were thinking.

[Kozh]

I'm not looking forward to EW side stories because of this tbh. They already tried so hard to make us love venat, even using the ridiculously sappy "bloodied venat walking alone" scene (which then paralled to the WoL during our confrontation with emet back in ShB. A travesty I'd say). I'm half sure they will write more justification, excuses etc. so that her action is the best plan ever and how she suffered the most bla bla bla.

I mean, the game basically ask us to not think too much and accept the writer's vision of her, despite how it doesn't make any sense.

[Lauront]

I think I now relate to Hermes on a spiritual level in the sense of feeling alone and like an aberration for having different thoughts from the masses.

I think he is relatable in that sense - I mean even in relation to this game's playerbase more generally, my own thoughts on matters are quite far apart - but his approach to the situation is where I lose all sympathy.

Really hope dynamis never gets mentioned again in the future patches.

Yeah, I don't really care for its very concept. I suppose it's because I consider there to already be enough delusion in this world about feelings holding sway over reality, so seeing a fantasy setting formalise it doesn't appeal much to me. Especially if it just relates in contests of WOL & co's feelings just mattering more than everyone else's, in effect. Aka more screeching, preaching and wailing that I couldn't care less about. Aside from that? It's just a weaker fuel, at the end of the day. I do suspect they may tie it into the Void, because even though they have explanations of that they could draw upon without dynamis, it would fit with descriptions of the world being aether-depleted... but with that said, the First was also described in a similar way, until it was realised its aether is stagnant, not absent.

*snip*

I don't really sympathise much with her perspective or approach either, in all honesty. As you say, maybe they'd have ended up as the Plenty; in which case, so what? Souls are reborn eventually anyway, so it would not result in the death of all sapient life on the star. Without Meteion, this is a non-issue. Or if they had been given enough direct testimony of what happened, they may have changed, avoiding that scenario. I lean towards Brinne's interpretation, that it is romanticisation of suffering and its perceived necessity, above all else, driving her.

It honestly makes me question the maturity of the audience.

Catching up on reddit's new daily posts is enough to make me do that.

As for Ra-la, the thought occurred to me that returning to the star was such a fundamental part of the Ancients' beliefs yet in The Plenty they had made themselves immortal and by creating Ra-la to 'exterminate' them were abdicating their duty as stewards of the star. This is essentially the antithesis of what we know of the Ancients. I feel like this is the case with almost all of the writing in EW, it presents conclusions while providing little evidence the one they arrived at was likely.

That is a good point - and it's why I maintain that had they been given all the info, that scenario would, in all probability, have struck them as one they would need to labour so as to avoid it.

I'm not looking forward to EW side stories because of this tbh. They already tried so hard to make us love venat, even using the ridiculously sappy "bloodied venat walking alone" scene (which then paralled to the WoL during our confrontation with emet back in ShB. A travesty I'd say). I'm half sure they will write more justification, excuses etc. so that her action is the best plan ever and how she suffered the most bla bla bla.

I mean, the game basically ask us to not think too much and accept the writer's vision of her, despite how it doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. If it, plus any of the other content (e.g. Pandaemonium, alliance raids, etc.) is more of the above... zzzz. May as well just move over to Lost Ark full time.

[linayar]

I'd say there's plenty of in universe reasons to believe that an alternative plan would have been viable by virtue of Venat deliberately going out of her way to avoid informing the Ancients of what was coming. Had they been made aware of the impending arrival of the Final Days as well as Meteion's existence then there's ample reason to believe that they would have fought tooth and nail in order to survive.

She clearly said she avoided telling them in case Hermes decided to undermine them while at the same time still having Hermes be a part of the solution making.

The idea that there is a viable alternative plan does not follow simply from Venat's decision.

Boy, does it feel awkward watching streamers finishing the Elpis segment then seeing their chats gushing about it after all the deep thinking and discussion I've done since I finished the MSQ.

Watching an Elpis playthrough actually reaffirms my support for Venat. I don't think she is a perfect character, but I can side with the choices she made from her perspective. And Yoshida thinking she is just like the other Ancients made it even more understandable.

Really hope dynamis never gets mentioned again in the future patches.

I think it could go either way. If they have plans for it, then they could as it is now part of the established setting. If not, then they can leave it alone from a plot perspective while still keeping it in mind as part of the lore.

[Sicno]

She clearly said she avoided telling them in case Hermes decided to undermine them while at the same time still having Hermes be a part of the solution making.

Oh no Hermes opposes us, whatever shall we do to prove our case against him? Oh if only we could have some sort of power to show people events from the past. And if we only had some evidence that Meteion is still out there and traveling to the end of the universe, something like a crystal with tracking data about her.

Oh if also the shady events that happened inside Ktisis wouldn't question Hermes's character and integrity. Wiping the memory of a Convocation member with a machine that's apparently not within the law, from what Emet mentioned earlier when he heard about it?

But oh no, Hermes-senpai doesn't like us and we """"need"""" him for a haphazard "solution" that we know is not definitive and that will involve countless sacrifice. Oh no, there's no way he could be forced to cooperate and share his knowledge. Yeah, I guess we'll just let him brood while the world burns.

[PawPaw]

The idea that there is a viable alternative plan does not follow simply from Venat's decision.

Not sure what this means. Are you implying that because she decided not to tell her people that they were about to face a world-ending catastrophe then it follows that there must not have been any way to save them from said catastrophe simply because she was of the opinion that they couldn't be saved? So because she couldn't think of a way herself, we should assume that the Convocation of Fourteen, the most brilliant minds of the time couldn't have either?

Oh no Hermes opposes us, whatever shall we do to prove our case against him?

There's nothing to be done, he's the only one who knows what Dynamis is weak against....except...he's not...and the scene just before this one showing us how to read memories is one we're clearly not supposed to think about after the fact.

[Brinne]

Not sure what this means. Are you implying that because she decided not to tell her people that they were about to face a world-ending catastrophe then it follows that there must not have been any way to save them from said catastrophe simply because she was of the opinion that they couldn't be saved? So because she couldn't think of a way herself, we should assume that the Convocation of Fourteen, the most brilliant minds of the time couldn't have either?

It's sort of funny - one of the friends I mentioned a while back, the one that was probably the "friendliest" towards Venat of all of us, noted immediately during the scene we're explaining ourselves that Venat... is an incredibly self-assured person who is very, very, very confident in her own perspective. She immediately comes to the conclusion, with zero doubts, that all of the decisions of her future self must have had a reason, and that reason must be for good cause and be logically sound, but they just didn't understand it yet. That she can speak for her future self's thoughts with without doubt, even without context, because it's her, after all. Contrast that with Emet, who obviously struggles with the enormity of the gap between his present self and the atrocities of his future self.

So, uh, not necessarily out of character, really?

EDIT: There is something sort of darkly hilarious about Venat's rationale about dynamis and one's chances against Meteion, since they have her state she's heard of dynamis but is certainly no expert - and is certainly no expert on the finer points of Meteion's design, either. Self-assured indeed!