What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Atelier-Bagur]

I see thanks for the insight! Although I do personally feel like some of these interpretations on the Garleans are absolute based. Then again so are my mines lol.

Its mostly down to the fact that the Garleans still decided to have this oppressive regime wanting to conquer other lands, stripping them of their freedoms and culture just for the sake of culling out primal worship. Like at the end of the day I stopped caring for reasoning with their motives. I appreciated that they it was there and certain story content such as the conversation Varis before Grimlyt Dark, Gaius and the Sorrow of Werlyt, the Bozja stuff along with Endwalker's Garlemald nicely offered me a bit more of their perspective and it was interesting but....they instigated a war, wanting to invade other lands. Im sorry but Im not gonna go "oh poor them" when they're causing more suffering than the beast tribes and their primal summoning alone. There was nothing that was "morally grey" about that. I might even say those motives were just as bad as the recent reveals of the Jailer's motives in WoW where "yeah I'm gonna dominate the universe just to prevent a bigger threat...from dominating...the universe. Like seriously what!?" Ive seen this kind of backstory for villians numerous times in other jrpgs that Ive grown numb to them and just accepted it but didnt care.

However despite this, I still enjoy the Garleans for just being villians; which was way Stormblood was a fave expansion of mines because we got to see more of them and how they were oppressing other people. Im a FF nerd (played all the mainline games) and my personal interest with them were due to how Garlean and Legatus armors looked like the Archadian Judge armor from FFXII (which Im so happy to find another person liking that game!) But yeah.

[EaraGrace]

I don't know how you come to this conclusion. What she presented at the "residential" wasn't accepted, so she rewrote it to be something the others would accept. Sounds like the opposite of telling the story she wanted to tell.

Yoshida: During the residential, the core parts of the story were listed, but after that Ishikawa said ‘we didn’t reach agreement, so I rewrote it.” As a result, when we compared the story decided on at the residential, and the rewrite Ishikawa presented, we thought “it was the right choice to rework this”.

That sounds to me like they went with Ishikawas version no? The residential one would be the one with all the others offering ideas, her rewrite was hers alone. The last line is the one I’m focusing on.

Obviously everything had to happen the way it did for the current game world to exist, I don't believe anyone has ever argued that. I've never believed Metetion was evil, she was a faulty creation given a misguided mission and ended up corrupted.

As for Hermes, most people (even those who loved his character) thought he suffered from some form of mental illness. What Ishikawa had in mind is not what was conveyed in the game. It was about as "evil" and a "mistake" as a postal shooter.

Then you disagree with Ishikawa, as was my point. She’s very clear, saying he’s both her favorite character who isn’t simply evil, and that he was motivated by fairness in juxtaposition to Emet who was motivated by emotion.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Also just to add that last point I made, I'm going to disagree with the idea that they "retconned" the Garleans or such in later expansions. Like literally Gaius spelled out the Empire's motivations back in ARR, in fact he had multiple speeches about it; unless many of us took the Prae run snoozefest seriously lol.

[Rulakir]

Then you disagree with Ishikawa, as was my point. She’s very clear, saying he’s both her favorite character who isn’t simply evil, and that he was motivated by fairness in juxtaposition to Emet who was motivated by emotion.

No, I said her vision is not what was conveyed in the game.

[Ixon]

Not gonna lie, I had kinda forgotten by the final scenes in Endwalker that Emet was directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousand across multiple fractions. Which I guess thinking on it kinda again leads me more to thinking Zodiark was in fact tempering the unsundered given Emets higher regard for life(even familiars) in Elpis. So either Emet had homicidal tendencies all along, or Zodiark did have some form of self-being outside of just being a tool or vesel that forced the unsundered to reform him by any means necessary. Not that there is any proof of that in what we currently have, but it was just a though that crossed my mind.

[Teraq]

Genuinely asking here. What WAS that first drew you to the Garleans and Ascians in ARR and in HW? IMO they were your everyday typical jrpg saturday morning cartoon villians till the got more fleshed out during Stormblood with the Garleans and Shadowbringers with the Ascians...or specifically Emet-Selch and Elidibus. I mean personally, they were fine in general back anyway, wasnt honestly expecting them much but was very surprised to understand them more in the later expansions which is where a lot of people got hooked into them it seems.

I realise you didn't ask me, but if I may give my PoV as someone who's always appreciated Ascians back in ARR and HW: honestly... I'm just a villain-group-dynamic person. On top of usually preferring the manipulative-ish villains who act from the shadows. I was intrigued in 2.0, then even more so when I found out there were a whole group of them with actual different names and personal goals. Elidibus was my favorite (and still is, I'm so sorry Emet), apparently baby-sitting the whole terrible lot of them, a fact which honestly just got funnier now that we know he was just babby compared to the rest. I'm terribly sad Nabriales was such a one-hit wonder because I really wanted to see more of his hotheaded obnoxious and womanizing antics that seemingly aggroed Elidibus by the past – much like Fandaniel sort of implied he did, himself. The game teased me with some Pashtarot and Altima that never happened, though I made note of the fact that they were indeed all based on the FFXII zodiac – that was fuel for headcanons and other unseen dynamics, after all. Igeyorhm being responsible for the Void because she girlboss'd the Thirteenth? Interesting and woefully under-utilised. Then, while not actually an Ascian, we got Unukalhai, and yeah wow talk about under-exploitation here too, but at least I got to make jokes about how my favorite Ascian should finally come and pick up his kid. Stormblood patches storyline? Oh I was all over that one. I even loved Asahi (you did read that correctly indeed) and found Emet-Selch in 4.4 and 4.5 fun already! Also because I loved the idea of Varis stuck in the middle of two Unsundered. The two masks on Gaius's belt? More teasing, and there was no way Gaius would ever definitely take care of Ascian paragons like this, so it looked like we might get to know them in the inevitable Garlemald expansion.

All throughout, they'd always felt like the true, cosmic menace of the overarching plot. While I also appreciate the Garleans (honestly, yes, I just default to villains. I kind of ... always have) and Nero was a definite highlight of ARR–SB to me, they were the more mundane antagonists, and while I don't usually have a preference between cosmic and "mundane" villains, the fact that the backgroundplot featured an actual crystal Goddess of Light and other assorted gods pointed towards the Ascians having a lot to do with the wider, multiple-expansion plot and I was really curious about that. So really, to me it was just a matter of time until we inevitably learned so much more about their backstory – I would say anticipation of things happening was a large factor in my preferences. (Hence my reaction, in part, to Endwalker: I feel it didn't live up to a lot of that, and as far as we know it's kind of over for this plot.)

I'm a simple woman, just throw at me a group of villains interacting with and kind of hating each other, have them manipulate people and orchestrate things behind the scenes and make them look cool and I've already bitten the bait, I'm pathetic ngl

Not gonna lie, I had kinda forgotten by the final scenes in Endwalker that Emet was directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousand across multiple fractions. Which I guess thinking on it kinda again leads me more to thinking Zodiark was in fact tempering the unsundered given Emets higher regard for life(even familiars) in Elpis. So either Emet had homicidal tendencies all along, or Zodiark did have some form of self-being outside of just being a tool or vesel that forced the unsundered to reform him by any means necessary. Not that there is any proof of that in what we currently have, but it was just a though that crossed my mind.

Honestly, I wholly dislike the notion of Ascian tempering being anything more than a slight pull towards Zodiark, and to me the Unsundered (not just Emet in particular) approving the destruction of 7–9 planets (depending if you count the Void and the 8th Calamity or not) while they were all three very respectable people in human life is exactly what I like: people are capable of terrible, terrible things, especially if they've figured it was the only way to bring back their loved ones and set right something they perceive as very wrong – and as members of the Convocation they would probably feel a huge responsibility resting solely on their shoulders. If you'd made this any sort of mind control, I would just stop caring. I mean, the "oh my god what have I DONE" mind control plot is interesting on its own, but it isn't my thing. I'm more into bastards who perfectly know what they are doing.*

*I trust people in this thread to know this, but just in case... I mean in fiction.

[Skyborne]

...

Pretty much the same. While I'm glad they developed Emet/Elidibus/soon Lahabrea/Mitron/Loghrif/Fandanny, it kind of miffed me that Emet-Selch became 'the' only Ascian that mattered, and we never saw the group dynamic ever again. I suppose 13 was just too ambitious a number. Reminds me of some interview where they stated they wrote 'Seven Great Wyrms' because it sounded cool. Maybe we'll get something with Azdaja...

[Teraq]

Pretty much the same. While I'm glad they developed Emet/Elidibus/soon Lahabrea/Mitron/Loghrif/Fandanny, it kind of miffed me that Emet-Selch became 'the' only Ascian that mattered, and we never saw the group dynamic ever again. I suppose 13 was just too ambitious a number.

I was almost going to mention that my personal unpopular opinion about Ascians is that as soon as Emet-Selch entered the stage, the Ascian plot became the Emet-Selch plot. I'm thankful for getting my little crumb of Eli, but... yeah... I mean no disrespect to Emet, he's a fantastic character. But. You know?

I was talking about ARR/HW/SB so I didn't mention Mitron and Loghrif, but you should have seen my face during the Elpis aether current quest tbh. I will be FOREVER thankful that whoever wrote the Eden storyline actually had Gaia empathise with him...her?..them. I can't emphasise enough how much I love that their final dialogue was so soft and amiable, and I'm not typically a shipper.

[Ixon]

Honestly, I wholly dislike the notion of Ascian tempering being anything more than a slight pull towards Zodiark, and to me the Unsundered (not just Emet in particular) approving the destruction of 7–9 planets (depending if you count the Void and the 8th Calamity or not) while they were all three very respectable people in human life is exactly what I like: people are capable of terrible, terrible things, especially if they've figured it was the only way to bring back their loved ones and set right something they perceive as very wrong – and as members of the Convocation they would probably feel a huge responsibility resting solely on their shoulders. If you'd made this any sort of mind control, I would just stop caring. I mean, the "oh my god what have I DONE" mind control plot is interesting on its own, but it isn't my thing. I'm more into bastards!

I agree that the gentle tug notion seems the most accurate; The One Ring in Lord of the Rings comes to mind. Whispers and nudges here and there. There was also probably some god superiority complex to us, referring to us as "flawed creations" at one point if I recall, not to mention seeing 1/13th of a friend or someone you used to know for a couple thousand years probably isn't going to make sane a person. I'd like to think with some sort of optimism that perhaps this sort of flaws in characters could be applied to Hermes and especially Venat. Not to go all #TeamVenat, but the more I think about it, the more the sundering seemed like a gamble on the future, one that she was even so unsure of that she had the ark in the moon created so the people of Etheirys could hypothetically just run away(though I think everybody knew it wouldn't come to that) if we could not stop The Final Days. Though again this is more twisting theories to try and support the last minute, duct tape and a dream, story that was finished.

[Lauront]

Honestly, I wholly dislike the notion of Ascian tempering being anything more than a slight pull towards Zodiark, and to me the Unsundered (not just Emet in particular) approving the destruction of 7–9 planets (depending if you count the Void and the 8th Calamity or not) while they were all three very respectable people in human life is exactly what I like: people are capable of terrible, terrible things, especially if they've figured it was the only way to bring back their loved ones and set right something they perceive as very wrong – and as members of the Convocation they would probably feel a huge responsibility resting solely on their shoulders. If you'd made this any sort of mind control, I would just stop caring. I mean, the "oh my god what have I DONE" mind control plot is interesting on its own, but it isn't my thing. I'm more into bastards who perfectly know what they are doing.*

*I trust people in this thread to know this, but just in case... I mean in fiction.

^This. I'm also not keen on mind control overwriting their own motives as a plot device. Given all the lore developments during SHB and EW, we can say tempering has been demoted to explaining the state of some Ascians, like Lahabrea, and is not there to overwrite their own motives.