Job action combos one button

[Saraide]

positionals and oGCDs are disctractions?
They're part of your core rotation. You don't just press your 3 main combo ya know.
Seems like people who object to this change think that your main combo exists in a vacuum. *shrug*

Why are you bringing up oGCDs and positionals in the first place is my question.

[Shurrikhan]

Why are you bringing up oGCDs and positionals in the first place is my question.

Presumably because if one thinks of only GCDs, then the number of GCD buttons reduced would seem to have a large impact on depth, rather than merely QoL.

But, step-by-step changes in GCD buttons has never been all there is to buttonflow, nor to what requires one to keep track of what GCD they are on. Even minimizing movement to the smallest possible single-press bursts thereof, a DRG, SAM, etc., will still have to move per average combo while oGCDs, including GCD-synergetic ones like Life Surge, have always been pretty prevalent.

It's kind of like if someone looks at a change in gas price increase and calling it an equal change in the cost of driving, while ignoring all other periodic costs which have not increased to nearly the extent of said gas. When the price per gallon is all that's being discussed, things will quickly seem that way, but it's only a part of the whole -- even if a large part, and perhaps the largest for some.

If you make the claim that consolidating combo keys would "automat[e] away the attention you needed to spend" on following one's combo, it is perfectly valid to point out that, no, resource management (not overcapping), positioning for the next step in your combo, synergetic abilities, and the like all still require you to pay attention to your combo progress.

The only part really affected is the nodding off, or getting a lag spike or especially clipped animation while distracted, and forgetting what step you did most recently, and only to the degree that you can still screw up surrounding timings or your positioning but now cannot accidentally reset your whole combo.

That said, I'm also not certain that stacked keys are a boon in doing one's full burst; I imagine that'd be rather player-dependent. It's been pretty net-neutral for me, as each unique GCD button hit was a tactile reminder of where to go / what to hit next. I can do without, but I wouldn't say it's easier; probably the opposite, very faintly. That's why I don't think everyone would go for that option (combo consolidation), even if they took the time to try to adjust to it.

[LittleImp]

Sure, disabled people just don't try hard enough.

You should be shameful of saying that sort of things. I'm glad some people can play well with disabilites, but you both are just elitists that use some examples as an excuse to speak shit, and I don't even want to argue with you anymore, you're just despicable.

It's pretty sad that you would try to imply someone else is toxic while choosing to speak like this to someone you disagree with about a feature in a video game of all things. You really need to work on controlling your emotions, and the way you express yourself.

but you both are just elitists that use some examples as an excuse to speak shit

Like honestly, what on earth is this? Do you think 'Elitists' go around preying on disabled people for fun? I grew up with a severely disabled family member. I've taught raids to folks with both physical and mental disabilities, and even sat down and helped them optimize their hot-bars, relegate certain functions to third-party macros, and recommended peripherals that can improve their experience. The types of inputs people struggle with tend to vary a lot based on the nature of their disability; Just as there are people who struggle to press a wide array of inputs, there are also people who have issues with repetitious motion and pressing the same button many times.

The ideal solution would indeed be an opt-in system, but many are rightfully concerned about Square Enix's approach to implementing something like that. It is highly likely that it wouldn't be optional given precedent, which would simply create a different but still problemed situation. Even if such a feature were added, if they don't specifically recognize the accessibility issue, they'll simply continue to add more buttons in the place of those that they eliminate. I'll fully throw in my support for an optional system, I just don't think it's likely to happen in a form that will please everyone.

Between third party macro software, FF14 specific mods and the range of peripherals available, PC players have a definite advantage in regards to accessibility. If anyone is running into accessibility issues and needs a solution sooner rather than later, the non-steam PC version of FF14 will be your best bet, finances permitting.

[Saraide]

Presumably because if one thinks of only GCDs, then the number of GCD buttons reduced would seem to have a large impact on depth, rather than merely QoL.

But, step-by-step changes in GCD buttons has never been all there is to buttonflow, nor to what requires one to keep track of what GCD they are on. Even minimizing movement to the smallest possible single-press bursts thereof, a DRG, SAM, etc., will still have to move per average combo while oGCDs, including GCD-synergetic ones like Life Surge, have always been pretty prevalent.

It's kind of like is someone looks at a change in gas price increase and calling it an equal change in the cost of driving, while ignoring all other periodic costs which have not increased to nearly the extent of said gas. When the price per gallon is all that's being discussed, things will quickly seem that way, but it's only a part of the whole -- even a large part, and the largest for some.

If you make the claim that consolidating combo keys "automating away the attention you needed to spend" on following one's combo, it is perfectly valid to point out that, no, resource management (not overcapping), positioning for the next step in your combo, synergetic abilities, and the like all still require you to pay attention to your combo progress.

The only part really affected is the nodding off, or getting a lag spike or especially clipped animation while distracted, and forgetting what step you did most recently, and only to the degree that you can still screw up surrounding timings or your positioning but now cannot accidentally reset your whole combo.

That said, I'm also not certain that stacked keys are a boon in doing one's full burst; I imagine that'd be rather player-dependent. It's been pretty net-neutral for me, as each unique GCD button hit was a tactile reminder of where to go / what to hit next. I can do without, but I wouldn't say it's easier; probably the opposite, very faintly. That's why I don't think everyone would go for that option (combo consolidation), even if they took the time to try to adjust to it.

Where did I claim it automates the entire rotation? Genuinly curious if I just straight up cant type anymore. oGCDs require attention, positionals require attention and combo steps require attention and dropping combo is often times much more punishing than missing positionals or drifting oGCDs.
Not a lot of GCDs even have positionals at this point and only on SAM do they actually matter for resources. None of the tanks have positionals at all.
Resource management has you pay attention to your resources mostly not really your combo steps.

[Shurrikhan]

Where did I claim it automates the entire rotation?

I never said you did. I said you claimed it automates away the attention needed for following one's GCD combo(s). Which you did, right here:

I'm saying you are automating away the attention you needed to spend on your basic combo.

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Not a lot of GCDs even have positionals at this point and only on SAM do they actually matter for resources.

SAM doesn't generate resources from positionals anymore, but that's irrelevant anyways; potency is potency. Previously, those 5 Kenki were worth ~64 potency. Now, as direct potency, they're worth a straight 60.

Resource management has you pay attention to your resources mostly not really your combo steps.

Let's consider, then, the most 'stupidly simple' combo in the game -- DRK's.

It wants to bank for burst; any resource explited outside of burst is a potency loss.
Every 2nd step in combo, though, risks overcapping MP. Every 3rd step in combo risks overcapping Gauge.

That's a fair bit of resource interaction in that combo, no?

[Saraide]

I never said you did. I said you claimed it automates away the attention needed for following one's GCD combo(s). Which you did, right here:


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SAM doesn't generate resources from positionals anymore, but that's irrelevant anyways; potency is potency. Previously, those 5 Kenki were worth ~64 potency. Now, as direct potency, they're worth a straight 60.


Let's consider, then, the most 'stupidly simple' combo in the game -- DRK's.

It wants to bank for burst; any resource explited outside of burst is a potency loss.
Every 2nd step in combo, though, risks overcapping MP. Every 3rd step in combo risks overcapping Gauge.

That's a fair bit of resource interaction in that combo, no?

Right, thank you for correcting me on samurai, I forgot about that.
You can use that edge or that bloodspiller any time earlier, you dont have to keep it up to directly overcapping it. If they arent in buffs either way, they can be freely shuffled around and IMO that is something decoupled from paying attention to your combo.

[Shurrikhan]

If they arent in buffs either way, they can be freely shuffled around and IMO that is something decoupled from paying attention to your combo.

I suppose that depends on how far ahead one can predict. To take DRK's combo as example again, because you want to minimize both Edges and Bloodspillers outside of burst, without overcapping MP or Gauge, you're looking any time (not all players necessarily needing more than one glance, but many also needing damn near bar-staring) between end of burst and next would-be overcap at whether you can, before your next Syphon that'd otherwise overcap, start a TBN that would pop (allowing you to push an Edge back towards burst), whether you will can enter burst before your next Souleater that would otherwise overcap, etc. Those things together have so much more cognitive load than shifting, almost subconsciously for most players, from button 1 to button 2 to button 3 with respective combo GCDs that the latter is hardly worth mention. (The latter is a feature, yes, but far more of tactile experience than of any sort of complexity; for most fully able players, it is already autonomous, and soon provides at least as much aid as difficulty.)

The step-tracking is still significant, and the 1-2-3 movement may aid that via tactile cues, but that 1-2-3 movement itself is an incredibly minor part of what goes into and surrounds even that most basic of combos (a straight 1-2-3 with zero alternate combos available) or "the[ir] attention needed".

That's why I have trouble seeing this option, should one choose to take it, as somehow destructive to depth or as "automating" play in any sense beyond its literal effect (to collapse button-movement and only button movement -- not to remove the need to track steps, track contexts, ready positioning, or any of that remaining vast majority of what goes into comboing in this game).

As such, I don't see it as offering, for most players, more than it'd lose in memory aid via tactile cues. Its offerings are merely reach and lost traps of bumping the wrong key; its shortfalls are nonetheless traps, merely of a subtler kind, if one forgets that, yes, they do need to use X action by Y GCD, etc., and fails to track what GCD their on by the next time it matters (which is more frequent than we may first assume), which can be exacerbated by lack of tactile cues if one doesn't grow used to that.

So long as it's an option --and I will insist that it absolutely can be introduced as such and would be if its being an option were presented as inseparable from the request for any combo consolidation (which I would support), for the reasons I have already given repeatedly, until someone can offer decent reasons to the contrary-- I see no reason why players for whom that space matters should be barred from having that option through legal means (or, as available also to any but non-Steam PC players). It's a trade-off, and those who can get more out of one end than the other should be able to take what suits them better.
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Admittedly, there is also a more abstract --OCD-related, if you will-- reason for my wanting to change how rigid combos are presently handled. It's button-waste, and if the game wants to insist on a separate button each for those actions, then those actions should also be separately usable.

At present, the use of any one combo key effectively locks out and wastes all but 1-2 others until that combo has ended; those other combo keys exist only as traps, without even the most situational of reasons to be used beyond having started into entirely the wrong combo by mistake (a mistake that can already be equally well addressed through consolidated keys). A job like Dragoon could manage far more interesting play by using a looser combo structure, managing combos via, say, Momentum (provided by Vorpal, Full, Spike, etc.) and Flurry (Sonic, Disembowel, Chaos, etc.) and certain skills building and/or taking from both. Such would be both less disproportionately punishing and capable of far more ingenuity (while also making for more frequent and interesting SkS tiers).

Give players a reason to use actions separately, outside of a fixed combo, and I'll agree that they should have separate keys, outside of a fixed combo. It's as simple as that.

Short of that, though, I see no reason why we shouldn't smooth the number of keys towards their available number of decisions -- and, ideally, even out the number of decisions available across different GCDs/steps. The buttons shouldn't exist, without contrary option, just to be traps. However subtly (as the case with Monk rotations), they must be capable of more, or the option should be given to trade out the tactile cues that their artificial complexity provides for the ease of reach of forgoing that artificial complexity.

[Saraide]

(snip)

I'll be honest here and lay out my bias here: I highly doubt most people advocating for combo collapsing are engaging in complete rotation optimization at all.

This is what I meant in my first post btw. Everytime there is pushback or questions, combo collapsing will be talked down to making basically 0 difference in both job complexity and amount of buttons removed because it's going to be like 2 buttons less. And some jobs dont even have combos, I wouldnt even count monk there either. To me there is a massive discrepancy between how much people advocate for it and how much the combo collapsing plugin is used on one hand and the extremely low impact you are describing on the other.

[Shurrikhan]

To me there is a massive discrepancy between how much people advocate for it and how much the combo collapsing plugin is used on one hand and the extremely low impact you are describing on the other.

Again, I do think the impact will vary. You give up something (helpful tactile cues) to avoid something else (annoyingly pointless trap buttons), the (de)merits of which will vary person-to-person.

I think, however, that the discrepancy comes down to consolidation (or allowing for combos to be separate actions -- either one) being also a solution to a second issue, and so it ends up a solution to two different problems, or sees approach from two different ends. Put more simply, if the total interest so much larger than what we'd see from Group A (with its related Reason A) alone, it's because there's also a Group B, with their own reason for wanting it.

That other approach or issue is that more abstract design principle I mentioned before: Inseparable combos are an eyesore of a design. As insignificant as its impact may be to the average player, the design itself lands, painfully, between two worthwhile designs that'd give it reason for those buttons (consolidation or separable actions), managing neither.

You'd have no less a 'disproportionate' reaction (one larger than its direct influence on players' ability to play what they want) to, say, a clunky or worthless ability even on a job whose kits still works plenty smoothly or powerfully on the whole.
Does the current combo design have large impact? For most players, no.
Does it make the game (or job) significantly less playable? For most players on most jobs, no.
Is it bizarre to the point of annoyance to many? Absolutely.

[hagare]

I'll be honest here and lay out my bias here: I highly doubt most people advocating for combo collapsing are engaging in complete rotation optimization at all.

yet you wonder why I bring up oGCDs in connection to GCDs.
I'm starting to think you don't optimize rotation