Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[ArthurVeritaston]

As a sprout, I think the best thing they can do to address this issue is to reduce tank self healing. I haven't experienced this yet, but I don't think tanks should have self healing, except maybe some weak paladin heals. Tanks should be good at avoiding or mitigating damage and healers should be good at healing. Once that health bar goes down it should be the healer's job to refill.

[SeverianLyonesse]

As a sprout, I think the best thing they can do to address this issue is to reduce tank self healing. I haven't experienced this yet, but I don't think tanks should have self healing, except maybe some weak paladin heals. Tanks should be good at avoiding or mitigating damage and healers should be good at healing. Once that health bar goes down it should be the healer's job to refill.

I still have trouble wrapping my brain around the fact that WAR has self-heals. That makes no sense to me. And Aurora doesn't really make much sense in GNB's job fantasy either.

I would be down for getting rid of all of them, including Clemency, since PLD still has other things that contribute to its "mage tank" role. However, I can see why they exist--to make soloing through MSQ content easier on tank players.

Which...I think that is a pretty significant problem with the game's design when you step back and look at it: that each tank (except DRK) has a self-heal *solely* to survive solo content, but that throws off the balance of practically everything else.

So I think if there is any way to remove this and still allow tank players to progress through MSQ content, it has to be done.

[SieyaM]

I still have trouble wrapping my brain around the fact that WAR has self-heals. That makes no sense to me. And Aurora doesn't really make much sense in GNB's job fantasy either.

I would be down for getting rid of all of them, including Clemency, since PLD still has other things that contribute to its "mage tank" role. However, I can see why they exist--to make soloing through MSQ content easier on tank players.

Which...I think that is a pretty significant problem with the game's design when you step back and look at it: that each tank (except DRK) has a self-heal *solely* to survive solo content, but that throws off the balance of practically everything else.

So I think if there is any way to remove this and still allow tank players to progress through MSQ content, it has to be done.

Clemency I believe is on PLD because in previous titles the job has had access to low level white magic, such as cure. Instead of just giving them Cure from WHM they decided to make an independent healing spell for PLD in this iteration.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Clemency I believe is on PLD because in previous titles the job has had access to low level white magic, such as cure. Instead of just giving them Cure from WHM they decided to make an independent healing spell for PLD in this iteration.

I understand that there is a tradition of giving Paladins some healing or white magic, not just in FF but in many RPGs.

I think even accounting for that it is a detriment to gameplay and would be best abandoned. Prior to the WAR rebalancing, practically the only time I ever saw Clemency come up in conversation were people saying PLDs just shouldn't use it because it's a DPS loss and an insult to their healers.

[ForteNightshade]

I still have trouble wrapping my brain around the fact that WAR has self-heals. That makes no sense to me. And Aurora doesn't really make much sense in GNB's job fantasy either.

I would be down for getting rid of all of them, including Clemency, since PLD still has other things that contribute to its "mage tank" role. However, I can see why they exist--to make soloing through MSQ content easier on tank players.

Which...I think that is a pretty significant problem with the game's design when you step back and look at it: that each tank (except DRK) has a self-heal *solely* to survive solo content, but that throws off the balance of practically everything else.

So I think if there is any way to remove this and still allow tank players to progress through MSQ content, it has to be done.

The tanks having self-sustain has very little, if anything, to do with solo-ing MSQ content. Every single tank could still accomplish that without ever touching their self heals. They're only needed when you're meme-ing old EX or Savage fights.

They're added to give tanks flavor and survivability in harder content so they aren't solely reliant on a healer. Otherwise, they'd be even further reduced to DPS that occasionally press a CD. Furthermore, tanks having self-sustain isn't really the problem here. A Warrior could literally never touch any one of their self heals and at one healer would be even remotely stressed about it. After all, there's a reason Dark Knight is meta despite it's complete lack of healing. There's so little healing required it just doesn't matter. So the tank with none but deals the highest damage wins.

[SeverianLyonesse]

The tanks having self-sustain has very little, if anything, to do with solo-ing MSQ content. Every single tank could still accomplish that without ever touching their self heals. They're only needed when you're meme-ing old EX or Savage fights.

They're added to give tanks flavor and survivability in harder content so they aren't solely reliant on a healer. Otherwise, they'd be even further reduced to DPS that occasionally press a CD. Furthermore, tanks having self-sustain isn't really the problem here. A Warrior could literally never touch any one of their self heals and at one healer would be even remotely stressed about it. After all, there's a reason Dark Knight is meta despite it's complete lack of healing. There's so little healing required it just doesn't matter. So the tank with none but deals the highest damage wins.

I would agree with your elaboration, with the exception of "further reduced to DPS" because they still have a suite of mitigation abilities and also care the most about positioning. Also, XIV is already a DPS-driven game--all of the jobs are already "reduced to DPS." The problem is that tanks get DPS mini-games while healers get single-button DPS spam.

I also think the "flavor" is quite irrelevant, since there are many different ways to give a tank flavor than self-sustaining through self-heals. If they in fact do need more to do outside of DPS, perhaps the raid design should focus more on forcing them to single-target DPS- or healer-busters. But I think healing themselves--on top of being, as you observe, mostly unneeded--is treading too much on the already quite narrow role of healers.

And blah blah I've already talked at length in this thread about how the self-sustain is really just the devs' way of making the game relatively fail-proof because XIV cares more about reeling in new casual players than challenging their skill. But I still think Arthur hit on perhaps the one thing that is the biggest culprit for healer irrelevancy.

[Ixon]

I would agree with your elaboration, with the exception of "further reduced to DPS" because they still have a suite of mitigation abilities and also care the most about positioning. Also, XIV is already a DPS-driven game--all of the jobs are already "reduced to DPS." The problem is that tanks get DPS mini-games while healers get single-button DPS spam.

I also think the "flavor" is quite irrelevant, since there are many different ways to give a tank flavor than self-sustaining through self-heals. If they in fact do need more to do outside of DPS, perhaps the raid design should focus more on forcing them to single-target DPS- or healer-busters. But I think healing themselves--on top of being, as you observe, mostly unneeded--is treading too much on the already quite narrow role of healers.

And blah blah I've already talked at length in this thread about how the self-sustain is really just the devs' way of making the game relatively fail-proof because XIV cares more about reeling in new casual players than challenging their skill. But I still think Arthur hit on perhaps the one thing that is the biggest culprit for healer irrelevancy.

As I have stated previously, the issue is two-part: Tanks and Healers built up power-creep due to the necessity of wanting them to "feel" stronger with each expansion, and the scaled down difficulty of overall content as they wanted to appeal to as many of the incoming player base as possible. These changes are great for the casual and newer players in simple content like Normal Modes and Dungeons, but hurts the fun and engagement of it's more veteran/hardcore players even in it's Savage tiers. The trick now is how do you make jobs fundamentally more of a challenge and more engaging to veteran players without taxing the skill floor and without making more casual/newer players a complete hindrance in a majority of content. As a tank, it does feel nice to have such a powerful kit that I can carry any party in 4 to 8 man content with, but in the same vein, it feels wasted and boring in current Savage content. This is doubly so with healers having a lackluster DPS rotation to fill in the gaps.

I am still of the mind that they should scrap or combine 1/3rd of healers healing kits, replace them with engaging DPS options, while scaling down tank sustainability and increasing DPS checks in some fights to help bring back the feeling of the trinity, thus allowing tanks and especially healers to feel more like the roles they are supposed to be. However, I do not think any changes to that degree will happen till after the next Ultimate, as I believe Yoshi and the devs are worried they might break something within the jobs and the next Ultimate that was already put on hold for so long.

[SeverianLyonesse]

As I have stated previously, the issue is two-part: Tanks and Healers built up power-creep due to the necessity of wanting them to "feel" stronger with each expansion, and the scaled down difficulty of overall content as they wanted to appeal to as many of the incoming player base as possible. These changes are great for the casual and newer players in simple content like Normal Modes and Dungeons, but hurts the fun and engagement of it's more veteran/hardcore players even in it's Savage tiers. The trick now is how do you make jobs fundamentally more of a challenge and more engaging to veteran players without taxing the skill floor and without making more casual/newer players a complete hindrance in a majority of content. As a tank, it does feel nice to have such a powerful kit that I can carry any party in 4 to 8 man content with, but in the same vein, it feels wasted and boring in current Savage content. This is doubly so with healers having a lackluster DPS rotation to fill in the gaps.

I am still of the mind that they should scrap or combine 1/3rd of healers healing kits, replace them with engaging DPS options, while scaling down tank sustainability and increasing DPS checks in some fights to help bring back the feeling of the trinity, thus allowing tanks and especially healers to feel more like the roles they are supposed to be. However, I do not think any changes to that degree will happen till after the next Ultimate, as I believe Yoshi and the devs are worried they might break something within the jobs and the next Ultimate that was already put on hold for so long.

I agree with all of this. I just have to reiterate that I don't see how self-healing feeds into the tank fantasy "feeling stronger." I know in a roundabout way stuff like Aurora is just another passive mitigation buff, but it still isn't playing into the job fantasy of being "tankier," i.e. having thicker skin or a bigger butt. So the fact that it is stepping on healers' toes *and* doesn't really resonate well with the tank job fantasy tells me that it's probably bad design.

[Ixon]

I agree with all of this. I just have to reiterate that I don't see how self-healing feeds into the tank fantasy "feeling stronger." I know it a round-about way stuff like Aurora is just another passive mitigation buff, but it still isn't playing into the job fantasy of being "tankier," i.e. having thicker skin or a bigger butt. So the fact that it is stepping on healers' toes *and* doesn't really resonate well with the tank job fantasy tells me that it's probably bad design.

I'd have to take a strong guess, but back in ARR you had just PLD and WAR right? PLD was mostly mitigation and blocking of damage while WAR was mostly a SOAKER of damage with Defiance granting more HP and higher healing received. In HW we got DRK, which was just edgy PLD with it's main focus being on magic damage mitigation and TBN, a shield. They leaned a little more into WAR being more of a soaker of damage(that also had great synergy with it's Fell Cleaves and Bloodbath that became iconic with the job, turning into Nascent later), and gave Clemency to PLD which I think thematically makes sense with it being all Holy spells and all that. From there they sort of had their "identities" or main focus and just added more homogenizations while trying to keep them thematically different. When GNB came in, they kinda just threw in what was left; general mitigation, heal and shield on 2 of combo(rather than flat healing on 3 of combo like WAR or DRK), a regen that no other tank had, and a parry ability(Camouflage) cause we heard some DRK's missed Dark Dance. This ideology that they made fed into the tank thought of "needing to protect an ally" where PLD could flat heal, or cover, and provide mitigation; WAR providing healing through hitting things, DRK gave a shield and was still the "magic defense" tank with Dark Mind, and GNB with mitigation and a regen. All of this which got expanded on in EW.

Healing itself is just a part of "sustainability" and is in my opinion, the equivalent of mitigation or a shield when it comes to being tanky. Whether I tank a small amount of damage from mitigation or a shield, or take a large amount of damage that I heal myself up for, it's all apart of sustainability. Roadhog from Overwatch comes to mind in that regard. Though we have reached a point, through my reasons stated above, that it is too much and causing negative side effects on the healer role. They COULD shift the healing more towards Clemency, where your sustainability would be at a cost of your DPS so you would only really do it in an emergency, thuis relying more on your healers to stay alive. However, there is such an overall disdain for Clemency that I do not think they would go in that direction.

[Deceptus]

The trick now is how do you make jobs fundamentally more of a challenge and more engaging to veteran players without taxing the skill floor and without making more casual/newer players a complete hindrance in a majority of content.

The answer is surprisingly simple:

Put the buttons there. The people who want to use them will use them and the people who don't want to use them . . . won't. They don't already.

If you're in dungeons it doesn't really matter. If you're in higher end content a higher level of play is expected. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

It's like tanks who refuse to use their mitigation buttons in dungeons. Can the run be done? Yes. But if they tried to do that in EX / Savage / Ultimate they'd be immediately kicked from their groups, and for good reason.

The problem still isn't tank sustain though. Say they took away every self-sustaining tanks have this tier. What changes? They can't meme on P1N or old EXs; content that is largely irrelevant in terms of balance. It wouldn't impact a Healer's gameplay. You wouldn't have more to heal in P1N or even P1S if Bloodwhetting didn't exist. We know this because, hilariously, the speed meta is actually double Dark Knight—the tank with zero sustain. What needs to be addressed is the one button spam "rotation" healers have. Taking away tank healing won't accomplish that.
.

It will stop them from cheesing current content which in no way should be even remotely close to happening. Re: Old EX's. It doesn't matter what job you're on, they're pretty easy to melt anyway, be it Monk, SMN, or Warrior.

It's all entirely irrelevant for the reasons I stated above. Delete Bloodwhetting, Aurora, Clemency, Corundum and Equilibrium and what happens? Tanks can't solo Normal modes nobody cares about and Healers remain bored spamming Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis because the outgoing damage is still laughable. All you've accomplished in this scenario is reducing tank gameplay and nothing else.

That "Gameplay" is pressing a single button and doing about their normal rotations. Not exactly the most engaging thing.