What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Weird take away, but no. My issue is them literally throwing away their lives prior to calamity, via self termination. Furthermore, the fact this irony that the Unsundered long so for their loved ones and the lives they had prior when they used to do this flies over so many people's head in these arguments is frustrating.

You act like they were killing themselves after a hundred or so years. They lived an incredibly long time. Barring that though what does any of that have to do with them longing for their loved ones. Being in Zodiark meant them being unable to reincarnate or pass on the right way, some l thing they held dear. Those two things don’t really correlate at all. The Ancients from how i read it, passed on when they saw they had nothing much more to offer and to give their position to someone that would help flourish the star more, where they then would turn to reincarnation and start anew.

Nowhere in the recent Q&A did Yoshi-P stated that Hyadaelyn/Venat consumed the souls completely till there was nothing left.
Here's the link to the worded Q&A if you dont believe me https://novacrystallis.com/2022/02/f...dmap-detailed/

Unless were talking about the initial summoning then probably yeah considering the nature of the summoning. But the point still stands that she wasnt going around consuming souls of the sundered shards. Otherwise there wouldnt be a lifestream and the recycling of sundered souls wouldnt have happened.

Also lets not forget what was actually asked in that interview:

Question- "Was Venat sundering the star truly the only way to save it?"
Answer - "Yoshida consulted with Ishikawa, and says as Y’shtola theorized that the Ancients were so dense in aether that they could not control dynamis. Other Ancients concluded that Zodiark was the solution to Meteion’s song of oblivion, but Venat concluded that they could not change as a people and would be their own undoing."

So ok looks like the Ancients or at least a good portion of them DID knew of Meteion and the song of oblivion....but the Convocation still chose to preserve their "perfect world" in a futile attempt to keep what they had. This is why I was asking you guys that question earlier.....if the sundering didnt happen and Zodiark was the only one there, what would've that seriously accomplished.

Anyway people here need to go back and look at that Q&A again because it seriously looks like a lot of folk are just overly reading into things.

Yes, i meant the initial summoning. She consumed their souls and effectively erased them, something not even Zodiark did.She wasnt going around consuming souls after that(unless you count minfilia) but neither was Zodiark so im curious where you're getting he would just continuously suck up souls.

As far as that quote goes, i think you're misinterpreting it. We know the convocation and the people who summoned Zodiark didnt know of Meteion afaik. It seems hes describing that from a narration point of view, using it to describe the situation.How was it a futile attempt exactly? Them doing that is what makes the world exist as it is today. As someone else said, Zodiark was shielding the world for 12,000 years and a lot of that was after being sundered. If Venat had told them the truth and they used that time to come up with a solution i think its very easy to surmise theyd had been able to find a way. I tjink a lot of folks arent reading enough tbh. It seems people neef to go and play through ShB and EW again because theres some very common misconceptions like Zodiark being a blood god that is very quickly disproven.

[Kyohei]

The souls in Zodiark weren't consumed and we free them in Endwlaker. Hydaelyn had less people so they had to use even their soul aether to fuel the summoning. At the end of Anamnesis Anyder, the records say that none of Hydaelyn's summoners survived. The soul consuming Hydaelyn was even confirmed by Yoshida saying Venat's very own soul was consumed, and that is why she isn't returning to the star.

They weren't stubborn, they had no other solutions to go by for lack of knowledge on the situation and lack of time to study it.
Emet-Selch specifically said he didn't believe the WoL's story of the future but he accepted the idea of dynamis and was only shocked no one told him before. Also, even if he didn't believe us he still wished to investigate more in the end, and he believed in Venat. No valid reason to write that he wouldn't a second time, especially knowing there was something wrong with his memory.

Even if she did tell others, it wasn't to stop Zodiark's summoning as it was part of her plan. Informing the whole civilisation about dynamis and the upcoming Final Days could've changed everything. Venat wasn't a nobody, she was highly regarded by the ancient society. Even if some didn't believe her, others would've investigated dynamis. Yet she did not, and her civilisation was unprepared. Even if they didn't believe her at first, when seeing the first signs they would've understood. An understanding of the situation would've lead to other measures.

[Atelier-Bagur]

The souls in Zodiark weren't consumed and we free them in Endwlaker. Hydaelyn had less people so they had to use even their soul aether to fuel the summoning. At the end of Anamnesis Anyder, the records say that none of Hydaelyn's summoners survived. The soul consuming Hydaelyn was even confirmed by Yoshida saying Venat's very own soul was consumed, and that is why she isn't returning to the star.

They weren't stubborn, they had no other solutions to go by for lack of knowledge on the situation and lack of time to study it.
Emet-Selch specifically said he didn't believe the WoL's story of the future but he accepted the idea of dynamis and was only shocked no one told him before. Also, even if he didn't believe us he still wished to investigate more in the end, and he believed in Venat. No valid reason to write that he wouldn't a second time, especially knowing there was something wrong with his memory.

Even if she did tell others, it wasn't to stop Zodiark's summoning as it was part of her plan. Not informing the whole civilisation about dynamis and the upcoming Final Days could've changed everything. Venat wasn't a nobody, she was highly regarded by the ancient society, even if some didn't believe her, others would've investigated dynamis. Yet she did not, and her civilisation was unprepared. Even if they didn't believe her at first, when seeing the first signs they would've understood. An understanding of the situation would've lead to other measures.

Again she did told people she trusted initially about the truth behind the Final Days and when it came time for the first one to occur, from that Q&A interview I posted earlier its heavily implied that she and her group did told them everything....but the Convocation still chose to believe otherwise and summon Zodiark anyway.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Again she did told people she trusted initially about the truth behind the Final Days and when it came time for the first one to occur, from that Q&A interview I posted earlier its heavily implied that she and her group did told them everything....but the Convocation still chose to believe otherwise and summon Zodiark anyway.

She told the ancients/convocation AFTER THE FINAL DAYS ALREADY HIT. Why is that so hard to understand. She could have told them well enough beforehand and didnt.he tried to precch about hope and suffering when she didnt even give them the knowledge that couldve saved them. You're literally headcanoning that she told her followers before the final days hit. Theres nothing in game that supports that whatsoever outside of the one line of dialogue after ktisis of her saying she'll "gather followers." Which again, based on anamnesis, it seems she didnt tell them the truth at all.

[Kyohei]

Ysayle, Horse, and Papalymo all died in struggle, so they lived to the last. Whereas pre-calamity ancient could finish some paperwork, then decide that's all they can do and decide to put a .44 caliber hole in their aether, not living and self terminating.

All these sundered gave up their lives to create a better future for the star.
All the ancients that wished to return to the star did so after they had struggled to make the star better.
What's the difference? That they still had life years? All of them still had life years to spend, they simply chose not to.
The sundered give up their lives in hope of a better tomorrow, the ancient retired after being sure there will be one.

[Kyohei]

Again she did told people she trusted initially about the truth behind the Final Days and when it came time for the first one to occur, from that Q&A interview I posted earlier its heavily implied that she and her group did told them everything....but the Convocation still chose to believe otherwise and summon Zodiark anyway.

They did not know. They had no knowledge of what caused the Final days, they had no knowledge of Meteion. Emet-Selch in Shadowbringer doesn't know what caused it, he only knows and tells you it happened after a big noise. None of the convocation members knew, none of the ancients save for Venat knew, and even after sundering none of the ascians knew.

I invite you to ng+ Shadowbringers. What you quoted simply is Yoshida speaking of the occurrence, he doesn't mean the Convocation know of Meteion's song. He explains in a phrase that this is what the Convocation decided to do about what happened to them, something we know as of Endwalker to be Meteion's song of oblivion.

"Other Ancients concluded that Zodiark was the solution to Meteion’s song of oblivion, but Venat concluded that they could not change as a people and would be their own undoing."
It's easier and clearer in LL to name what player now know than saying:
"Other Ancients concluded that Zodiark was the solution to the calamity that befell them, but Venat concluded that they could not change as a people and would be their own undoing."

The first sentence cited doesn't imply the Convocation knows. Yoshida knows the players can't make the confusion as in Shadowbringers we are told multiple times they didn't know.

Similiar to saying, "In 1000 b.c the Egyptians thought bloodletting to be a cure for bacterial infections." This doesn't mean Egyptians knew about bacterial infections, they didn't know about bacteria. It is simply how they dealt with what we now know to be bacterial infection.

[PawPaw]

Again she did told people she trusted initially about the truth behind the Final Days and when it came time for the first one to occur, from that Q&A interview I posted earlier its heavily implied that she and her group did told them everything....but the Convocation still chose to believe otherwise and summon Zodiark anyway.

We hear from both Emet-Selch and Elidibus that the Convocation had no idea what was causing the Final Days. They guessed at it and were thankfully correct in that they needed to use aether to shield themselves, but they did not know the truth.

[PawPaw]

Even if they didn't believe her at first, when seeing the first signs they would've understood. An understanding of the situation would've lead to other measures.

And, to be honest, the thing that annoys me the absolute most is how the game makes a damn cutscene to show us exactly how the Ancients used their equivalent of the Echo to view the events of a place after the fact even if they weren't there to witness them at the time. "And in this way can history be preserved" said Venat. I see so many people put up the argument that there is NO WAY she would have been believed even if she had told the Convocation. ???? Why would anyone think this after being shown what we've been shown, not to mention Emet-Selch telling us that the Convocation has ways of knowing when someone is lying. Combine that with him being well aware that his memories have been tampered with and not being happy about it AND being told that they'd entered Ktsis with Venat and another strange person...how could the takeaway possibly be that telling him what had happened would just be something that couldn't be done? It's baffling how bad it all is.

Edit: I'm not gonna lie, the contradictions in the latter Elpis parts of this story are so hamfisted that part of me has to believe that they intend to pull a "gotcha" down the line and tell us that somehow an alternate timeline was created where things end differently. Because all of the ways that the truth could have been told but wasn't, all of the things that are said that should have led to further development, like Hythlodaeus saying that he'd have to ask Venat about this strange familiar when next they met or Venat saying that she'd have to form a plan...for all of those things to lead to actually nothing is just monumentally bad storytelling otherwise.

[Kyohei]

And, to be honest, the thing that annoys me the absolute most is how the game makes a damn cutscene to show us exactly how the Ancients used their equivalent of the Echo to view the events of a place after the fact even if they weren't there to witness them at the time. "And in this way can history be preserved" said Venat. I see so many people put up the argument that there is NO WAY she would have been believed even if she had told the Convocation. ???? Why would anyone think this after being shown what we've been shown, not to mention Emet-Selch telling us that the Convocation has ways of knowing when someone is lying. Combine that with him being well aware that his memories have been tampered with and not being happy about it AND being told that they'd entered Ktsis with Venat and another strange person...how could the takeaway possibly be that telling him what had happened would just be something that couldn't be done? It's baffling how bad it all is.

Yes, this whole lot of nonsense was hard to get past and digest, still is actually.

[Skyborne]

The Zenos philosophy... he's a fun(ny) character but I don't agree with it even if I understand it (also will be very surprised if he/his avatar is actually dead and doesn't pop up the next patch). Or Venat's, as Brinne laid out. To each their own, however, I think people can do what they want with their lives. People don't need to constantly fight each other like Saiyans to have meaningful lives. Suffering being reduced even if it's not totally eliminated like the Ancients succeeded in is nice and cool. All I wanna do is sip my energy drinks, create sharks with mammaries, and grill with Emet-Selch, for Zodiark's sake. Then Ra-La 5 minutes later, which is sad, I guess? Not my problem.