What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Caurcas]

Interesting! Thanks for sharing. I'm curious, if you don't mind elaborating, does it have to do with her violating people's rights?



I'm not familiar with those terms, however, looking up the definitions I got:

Collectivism is a value that is characterized by emphasis on cohesiveness among individuals and prioritization of the group over the self.

Individualism is the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology and social outlook that emphasizes the intrinsic worth of the individual.

Venat may have been individualistic, but she had no respect for anyone else's individualism (including Azem). I also wasn't trying to classify her politically as much as I thought players' political leanings might have influenced how they viewed her and her actions. Personally, I don't feel I fit the definition of a collectivist, but I still sympathized with the Ancients and felt Venat was wrong.

Well, while I am not wholly team Venat but neither am I at all team ancient and I veer pretty far right by conventional definition.

[Lauront]

Interesting! Thanks for sharing. I'm curious, if you don't mind elaborating, does it have to do with her violating people's rights?



I'm not familiar with those terms, however, looking up the definitions I got:

Collectivism is a value that is characterized by emphasis on cohesiveness among individuals and prioritization of the group over the self.

Individualism is the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology and social outlook that emphasizes the intrinsic worth of the individual.

Venat may have been individualistic, but she had no respect for anyone else's individualism (including Azem). I also wasn't trying to classify her politically as much as I thought players' political leanings might have influenced how they viewed her and her actions. Personally, I don't feel I fit the definition of a collectivist, but I still sympathized with the Ancients and felt Venat was wrong.

It's not aided by the fact that you can look at these traits on a number of dimensions, and both as psychological and political-philosophical concepts. There are ideologies across the political spectrum (even on the same "sides" of it) which place different emphasis on each. I consider them too diffuse as terms to bother with unless you're working from precise definitions of them, TBH.

[Rulakir]

I myself lean towards conservative/libertarian views (and that would entail upholding/preserving certain values over a status quo per se)

Yours is a better definition. I tend to be fiercely libertarian myself, so as soon as Venat infringed on everyone's fundamental rights to create her new world order it was a big Hell no from me.

Furthermore, if I wanted to be more harsh on the Anicents, and especially those that became Ascians, I'd call them entho-nationlist.

Well, if we go that route then Venat is guilty of racial cleansing. She eradicated the Ancients as a race, including the complete erasure of their history.

[Caurcas]

Yours is a better definition. I tend to be fiercely libertarian myself, so as soon as Venat infringed on everyone's fundamental rights to create her new world order it was a big Hell no from me.



Well, if we go that route then Venat is guilty of racial cleansing. She eradicated the Ancients as a race, including the complete erasure of their history.

Well she is an ancient...but atleast she didn't do sundered face like the asicans.

[PawPaw]

Well she is an ancient...but atleast she didn't do sundered face like the asicans.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. Can you please explain? Is she being excused for genocide somehow because she's an Ancient?

[Lauront]

Yours is a better definition. I tend to be fiercely libertarian myself, so as soon as Venat infringed on everyone's fundamental rights to create her new world order it was a big Hell no from me.

The bolded is where I think you'd probably begin to get closer to identifying why people identify with one side or another, where there's a philosophical reason for it, as opposed to something like fave characters etc. I.e. people's ethical frameworks and how they interpret things as fitting into these. These tend to transcend political beliefs, in that you can believe in similar values but hold to different ways to achieving these (and the opposite is true as well.) These sort of discussions remind me of my days back when I was a student, not overly long ago. I tend to prefer keeping political discussions out of gaming because they rarely stay away from contemporary RL issues, but it's good that we're keeping it to a general principles level rather than getting bogged down in the hot button political gremlins du jour.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Seriously what is even this thread anymore. Not gonna lie, it has been entertaining reading these debates

[KizuyaKatogami]

Seriously what is even this thread anymore. Not gonna lie, it has been entertaining reading these debates

It’s people discussing. What’s the point of your comment? It’s clear you disagree with peoples points in here which is absolutely fine. But why say things that contribute nothing to the conversation. Either contribute or move on lol.

[Caurcas]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. Can you please explain? Is she being excused for genocide somehow because she's an Ancient?

No. I am both making a joke, and saying she is just as ethno-nationalist as the other ancient by viewing herself as the way.

[Atelier-Bagur]

It’s people discussing. What’s the point of your comment? It’s clear you disagree with peoples points in here which is absolutely fine. But why say things that contribute nothing to the conversation. Either contribute or move on lol.

Dont get your knickers in a twist my guy. Ive already posted my two cents on this issue manu posts ago. Funny how you couldve easily ignored my previous post but instead I somehow struck a nerve or something?