Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[EaraGrace]

You’re free to jump to any conclusions, as incorrect as they may be. From a comparison of Venat vs Emet’s PoV, i very much think Elidibus’ pov would be one in a fairly unbiased light, as his duty was the salvation of the star and it’s people. I never even mentioned anything about Zodiark being right, that’s not even what this conversation is abo it, it’s about the biased representations given to us of certain events. Elidibus at this point was essentially a 3rd party in the debate of Convocation vs Venat’s group. Based on his dialogue he would indeed serve as a mediator presumably for both groups hence hearing and seeing both sides. I’m not sure what else there is to argue when we have concrete evidence of this in his dying dialogue, unless we’re going to accuse him of lying on his deathbed.

The whole point of Elidibus’ storyline in 5.3 was to show that being Zodiarks heart changed him, that the voices of his brethren had long drowned out his own. When he speaks of “steering the star on its true course,” and we hear what Venats group says of the Convocations reaction to their disagreement, are we not to conclude that Elidibus mediated nothing? Venats group certainly didn’t feel like they’d been heard, and the decision to go ahead with the third sacrifice happened anyway. His intention may have been rooted in solving the dispute, but whether he was still capable of being a mediator is uncertain.

And let it be clear that Elidibus was an Ascian through and through. His loyalties were to Zodiark and to the resurrection of his brethren.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The whole point of Elidibus’ storyline in 5.3 was to show that being Zodiarks heart changed him, that the voices of his brethren had long drowned out his own. When he speaks of “steering the star on its true course,” and we hear what Venats group says of the Convocations reaction to their disagreement, are we not to conclude that Elidibus mediated nothing? Venats group certainly didn’t feel like they’d been heard, and the decision to go ahead with the third sacrifice happened anyway. His intention may have been rooted in solving the dispute, but whether he was still capable of being a mediator is uncertain.

And let it be clear that Elidibus was an Ascian through and through. His loyalties were to Zodiark and to the resurrection of his brethren.

The only thing supporting this is Yshtola's hypothesis, which as we've seen time and time again, is usually incorrect. We dont even know if Elidibus had the chance to mediate with either group is my point. Perhaps by the time he was able to the sundering was already happening.

We're talking pre-sundering here maam. He wasnt an ascian at that point lol. People really need to learn to differentiate the terms.

[Kordarion]

The only thing supporting this is Yshtola's hypothesis, which as we've seen time and time again, is usually incorrect. We dont even know if Elidibus had the chance to mediate with either group is my point. Perhaps by the time he was able to the sundering was already happening.

We're talking pre-sundering here maam. He wasnt an ascian at that point lol. People really need to learn to differentiate the terms.

The whole point of a mediating figure is that they are an objective third party, it does not take a genius to see that Elidibus cannot be an objective third party. He agreed with summoning Zodiark in the first place, not to mention the fact that he serves as Zodiark's heart which makes him the will/driving force behind Zodiark as far as I am aware, therefore how can he be a third party if he is so intertwined with one side of the debate, it doesn't make any sense for him to be so.

Sure it isn't sated as such in game but it isn't a leap of logic to see how Elidibus would fail to be an effective or unbiased mediator following his becoming Zodiark's heart.

[SpectrePhantasia]

The whole point of a mediating figure is that they are an objective third party, it does not take a genius to see that Elidibus cannot be an objective third party. He agreed with summoning Zodiark in the first place

With the exception of Azem, (for a reason we do not know) next to no one disagreed with summoning Zodiark. Not even Venat discounts the fact that using him was essentially the only thing that the Ancients could do to survive, and continued to be the only reason people were surviving for the next 12,000 years. Elidibus made that choice and took that burden when the Ancients as a people had unanimously decided upon that course, before conflicts had ever arisen in the first place. There was nothing to 'agree' with, it was just the right thing to do. I fail to see how taking up the mantle of Zodiark when he was inarguably their only option belies some inherent bias on his part. I also don't think looking at Elidibus the way he is when their circumstances are completely different several millennia later helps to gleam how he would have acted then.

I also take issue with the placement of Elidibus's emergence from Zodiark being this early on in the timeline, as is being speculated here. The novella offers no further clarity on that front than what we already had. Again, Emet-selch was not talking of specifically the Convocation in that passage, or if he was, it isn't made clear, so we can't know if when the Anamnesis scene occurred, Elidibus was even there yet or not. If it is the Convocation, why is there apprehension towards Zodiark in the first place? I thought they were tempered when he was summoned? In that case, why did Elidibus need to withdraw himself at all? Either the tempering doesn't matter, or this is not referring to only the Convocation. Or maybe they were tempered but only a little bit because their souls are so massive they're resistant, so they kind of but not really have their own will?

See there are just too many unknown variables to come to a conclusion anyone will be even halfway satisfied with. Zodiark's tempering, the proper timeline of events; we are left in the dark on all of it, when we really should not have been. I get leaving some things to the imagination, but at this point we are making entire headcanon scenarios out of the tiniest scraps. I don't think this avenue is really gonna lead anywhere.

[Absimiliard]

If it is the Convocation, why is there apprehension towards Zodiark in the first place? I thought they were tempered when he was summoned? In that case, why did Elidibus need to withdraw himself at all? Either the tempering doesn't matter, or this is not referring to only the Convocation. Or maybe they were tempered but only a little bit because their souls are so massive they're resistant, so they kind of but not really have their own will?

It's most likely the latter. Tempering didn't seem to affect Ancients to anywhere near the degree it does their modern-day fragments. On the other hand it could be that Zodiark simply didn't want to rob them of their free will. It's been shown that primals can elect to increase or decrease the effects of their tempering. I don't believe we have any way of knowing which of these turned out to be the case, but what little evidence we have seems to indicate the former over the latter.

One thing we can say for certain is that Emet-Selch, being the best example of an Ancient we have, had numerous instances of just wanting to walk away from the mission. He even tried to, and he would probably have stuck to that if his son hadn't died. Given that the effects of tempering don't lessen with time, it seems fairly reasonable to assume Zodiark had little if any actual control over him.

I feel we can't really use Lahabrea as a proper example since he was clearly off his rocker from the beginning and only got worse as time went on.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The whole point of a mediating figure is that they are an objective third party, it does not take a genius to see that Elidibus cannot be an objective third party. He agreed with summoning Zodiark in the first place, not to mention the fact that he serves as Zodiark's heart which makes him the will/driving force behind Zodiark as far as I am aware, therefore how can he be a third party if he is so intertwined with one side of the debate, it doesn't make any sense for him to be so.

Sure it isn't sated as such in game but it isn't a leap of logic to see how Elidibus would fail to be an effective or unbiased mediator following his becoming Zodiark's heart.

Someone else already stated it but just to reiterate, Zodiark was a necessary solution in the grand scheme of thing and one that didn’t seem to have many in opposition to it. Like Spectre said i believe it was, we need to learn to separate future selves from past. They have no ties to their future selves at this point, they’re their own person. Considering his only goal that we can see is the salvation of the star and it’s people it’s a pretty unbiased account.

Something else to bring up since i’m seeing some talk about tempering. Keep in mind that even the tempered convocation disagreed on the 3rd set of sacrifices at first, so the tempering seems to be close to non-existent in all honesty.

Correct. Lahabrea grew worse with time. I have not and will not dispute that fact. You may notice that I even said as much my post a moment ago. That being said, at least a couple of the NPCs in Elpis do make reference to Lahabrea not exactly being the most sane individual. Even putting that aside, there's a whole prison filled with experiments that would be (and are stated to be) considered abominable even by Ancient standards. When I say off his rocker, I don't mean the raving lunatic we saw in ARR in Heavensward. I mean mentally unstable and seemingly lacking in a properly functioning moral compass as relates to the rest of his people.

I maintain that Lahabrea's greatly affected mental faculties as of ARR/Heavensward mean we should not use him as an example of Zodiark's effect upon the Ancients, as his zealot-like devotion appears to stem mostly from his own damaged mind rather than any actual primal influence.

While i certainly think he is probably still grieving for his wife, i dont think its entirely a matter of being sane. Keeping in mind Yoshi P attributed Lahabrea to himself in that in the end he's a very hard working individual...and then also remembering back to that Elidibus vision we had of him telling Elidibus to go outside and relax etc which presumably happens after the events of Elpis, i dont think anything so far points to him being crazy. As for Pandemonium, i think people just look at it from the outside. The way i see it, it's another chance for the more dangerous creations to run free in their little domains and still help research.

[EaraGrace]

Someone else already stated it but just to reiterate, Zodiark was a necessary solution in the grand scheme of thing and one that didn’t seem to have many in opposition to it. Like Spectre said i believe it was, we need to learn to separate future selves from past. They have no ties to their future selves at this point, they’re their own person. Considering his only goal that we can see is the salvation of the star and it’s people it’s a pretty unbiased account.

We can certainly keep in mind the effects of time, but we can’t simply wash our hands of the people they become. Especially when it directly ties into things that made up who they were. The question is whether Elidibus, being both involved in Zodiarks summoning and acting as the heart (a role that left him changed utterly), could truly mediate the conflict over the third sacrifices. Given all the above, I think the answer is simply no. Not because Elidibus is lacking in some way, but simply as a consequence of who he was after everything.

While i certainly think he is probably still grieving for his wife, i dont think its entirely a matter of being sane. Keeping in mind Yoshi P attributed Lahabrea to himself in that in the end he's a very hard working individual...and then also remembering back to that Elidibus vision we had of him telling Elidibus to go outside and relax etc which presumably happens after the events of Elpis, i dont think anything so far points to him being crazy. As for Pandemonium, i think people just look at it from the outside. The way i see it, it's another chance for the more dangerous creations to run free in their little domains and still help research.

What kind of person Lahabrea is at the the time of Pandaemonium largely remains to be seen. However, abandoning his son to the wayside after the death of Athena doesn’t reflect well on him. Not to mention there’s the issue that the facility he runs is only accessible with a teleporter that is overgrown with weeds and the “Lahabrea surely would’ve acted if something was amiss” line from the faculty he sent. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if he isn’t a jerk to be quite honest.

[KizuyaKatogami]

We can certainly keep in mind the effects of time, but we can’t simply wash our hands of the people they become. Especially when it directly ties into things that made up who they were. The question is whether Elidibus, being both involved in Zodiarks summoning and acting as the heart (a role that left him changed utterly), could truly mediate the conflict over the third sacrifices. Given all the above, I think the answer is simply no. Not because Elidibus is lacking in some way, but simply as a consequence of who he was after everything.



What kind of person Lahabrea is at the the time of Pandaemonium largely remains to be seen. However, abandoning his son to the wayside after the death of Athena doesn’t reflect well on him. Not to mention there’s the issue that the facility he runs is only accessible with a teleporter that is overgrown with weeds and the “Lahabrea surely would’ve acted if something was amiss” line from the faculty he sent. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if he isn’t a jerk to be quite honest.

We can wash our hands of it when it has quite literally nothing to do with the convo at large. The conversation is could Elidibus mediate said conflict, not could he mediate it 12,000 years after the fact. For all intents and purposes there's very little that suggests he could not at the time of pre-sundering. Of course though, whether Venat was actually open to reason remains to be seen. I'd suggest not as she chose to keep it all a secret.

As for Lahabrea, i honestly would have thought especially after Fourche people would stop being so quick to judge but this forum continues to amaze me in regards to this. People handle grief in different ways, as we have seen time and time again in this game. We also see again, how he seems to care for Elidibus' well-being, and this is after Elpis. I dont think it reflects inherently badly on him, otherwise i think most parents in 14 would be considered horrible lol. People seem to forget all the cutscenes and short stories we have giving us some insight on Lahabrea.

[EaraGrace]

We can wash our hands of it when it has quite literally nothing to do with the convo at large. The conversation is could Elidibus mediate said conflict, not could he mediate it 12,000 years after the fact. For all intents and purposes there's very little that suggests he could not at the time of pre-sundering. Of course though, whether Venat was actually open to reason remains to be seen. I'd suggest not as she chose to keep it all a secret.

Ah the immediate shift to “Venat must be the problem,” which totally absolves all other actors of their own failures. When members of Venats group were waved off and ignored exactly what was Elidibus doing to “mediate?” When the decision to make the third sacrifice came down even without the rift in Amaurot resolved what was he doing? And don’t even start with the secret stuff, we’ve had that conversation in the past and you refused to see the reasons for why that was necessary.

As for Lahabrea, i honestly would have thought especially after Fourche people would stop being so quick to judge but this forum continues to amaze me in regards to this. People handle grief in different ways, as we have seen time and time again in this game. We also see again, how he seems to care for Elidibus' well-being, and this is after Elpis. I dont think it reflects inherently badly on him, otherwise i think most parents in 14 would be considered horrible lol. People seem to forget all the cutscenes and short stories we have giving us some insight on Lahabrea.

Cant wait for the scene where Lahabrea gets in his knees and begs for Erichthonios forgiveness, if we’re following the Fourchenault arc. Totally something someone would do when they did the right thing. And I don’t believe “handling grief” requires abandoning your child, defending that with the “he’s going through a hard time” defense is just wrong.

[EaraGrace]

The only thing supporting this is Yshtola's hypothesis, which as we've seen time and time again, is usually incorrect. We dont even know if Elidibus had the chance to mediate with either group is my point. Perhaps by the time he was able to the sundering was already happening.

We're talking pre-sundering here maam. He wasnt an ascian at that point lol. People really need to learn to differentiate the terms.

I’d actually say she’s rarely incorrect, and more often than not plays the role of “explainer for the audience.” Not to mention Elidibus himself seemed to tacitly confirm her suspicions, and then there’s him mindlessly wandering up to us compelled by the desire for salvation… I think it’s clear what occurred.

And considering he was hanging out with Emet when the Sundering occurred, and Venats group only decided to move forward with their plan after the Convocation decided to go ahead with the third sacrifice, he definitely did have time to mediate. The fact that those who reached out to the Convocation didn’t feel heard doesn’t make it sound like it was going well however.

I could also do without the snark, friend.