Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[KizuyaKatogami]

Okay, so there's something that gives a bit more detail on this one, and it shows better the truth of what happened. From the second Emet-Selch Tales from the Shadows (the 'Azem Vs The Volcano' one):



So this gives us a timeframe; this is specifically after the second sacrifice, but before the Convocation were locked in on the third. If we want to put together an actual chronology, we know that the Anamnesis meeting was after this, because at that point the Convocation were certain and unyielding. But, now take into account his line after becoming what we now know is a primal, as well as the heart of Zodiark: "You will make the right choice, and I will see it through."

He's not extending impartiality, he's extending certainty. The assurance that the choice they make will be the right one--and as Zodiark's heart, there was only ever one road he was going to go down. He 'reconciled' by leading people down one specific road--and you can tell from the Anamnesis meeting, the opposing side wasn't quelled, they were shut out.

d
I dont think we can just ignore what comes from his mouth though, and i'd say its a bit of a reach to go that far.Especially when the timeline is pretty muddles as we never got a clear concrete telling of events. I dont think we even now if he was able to mediate with Venat's group. She may have sundered the world before he could even approach them.

[Cleretic]

d
I dont think we can just ignore what comes from his mouth though, and i'd say its a bit of a reach to go that far.Especially when the timeline is pretty muddles as we never got a clear concrete telling of events. I dont think we even now if he was able to mediate with Venat's group. She may have sundered the world before he could even approach them.

Venat's crew were coming to them and getting shut out, so we can't say that he just hadn't gotten around to it; they actually reported going to the Convocation and their words reaching deaf ears. So whatever his definition of reconciliation was, it was through ignoring or outright dismissing the actual opposition.

Given that 'most' of the planet wanted the third sacrifice, and we still don't really understand how Primal-Elidibus even happened, I suspect one of two things.

A: Elidibus came down of his own volition (as he believes), and as Zodiark's heart, immediately opted for the Zodiarkian option. 'You will make the right choice' because he was inherently biased towards the option that gave Zodiark more sacrifices, and pushed for that.

B: Elidibus came down via collective unconscious wish. Given that the majority of the planet supported the third sacrifice, this meant that their summoned primal did too. 'You will make the right choice' because he was the manifestation of majority will, and so already decided.

In either case, while he might have called what he did 'reconciliation' to himself, it clearly was not an actual communion between the dissenting groups.

Given this is Elidibus we're talking about, it's possible that we'll get a better idea of his general outlook over Pandaemonium. But personally, I don't think that post-Zodiark, he ever could've been impartial; we know that he was motivated by the needs of his own continual existence (hence how he got into his whole 'weaponizing heroism' thing), so how could he have ever be expected to fairly balance 'feed Zodiark vs. don't feed Zodiark'?

[SpectrePhantasia]

Venat's crew were coming to them and getting shut out, so we can't say that he just hadn't gotten around to it; they actually reported going to the Convocation and their words reaching deaf ears. So whatever his definition of reconciliation was, it was through ignoring or outright dismissing the actual opposition.

It's an interesting thought, but I think that is making a lot of assumptions for what is a very vaguely described event in the novella. Here Emet-selch is speaking of the people, not simply the Convocation, and as Elidibus says in his death, this division over the star's fate was not 'fleeting.' That it came after the second sacrifice (because that is when the disagreement began to appear) was already quite apparent, and doesn't narrow things down as much as one might think. It's also important to bear in mind that in the Anamnesis scene, an Ancient mentions themselves singularly being ignored by the Convocation. Nothing is mentioned of a response in a group context and we get nothing of how the Convocation might have reacted in a post-Hydaelyn scenario. Heck, since Emet-selch is referring more broadly to the people, that novella scene could have been after Hydaelyn's summoning, for all we know. According to Emet-selch the two fought for a long time so really anything's possible.

As for the separation from Zodiark itself, I think it is pretty safe to assume that it was of Elidibus's own volition. Even if it were a summoning made through some unconscious wish, akin to Louisoix as the Phoenix, would it not stand to reason those people would have simply conjured a primal out of thin air, from their prayers? It makes little sense to me that such wishes would carve out the heart of Zodiark.

There are just too many missing pieces to come to a definite conclusion on any of it, but in response to supposition I will supply my own. I think Elidibus did very much have it within his capability to mediate impartially. Above all else, above his role as Zodiark's heart, his role was one of reconciliation, that was his duty, and it is what he finally remembers as he dies. If Elidibus were truly a slave to Zodiark, I don't believe he would have left him masterless and vulnerable, to a point where Hydaelyn could be a match for him. In his death we learn that what Elidibus truly valued was the smiling faces of those he loved, (which is more directly referred to in his JP final words) and I think reconciliation in a truer sense than shutting out naysayers would be what he'd have pursued. Where you see "You will make the right choice" as "You will make my choice," I see it as a reassuring "You will find the right choice."

[Cleretic]

In all honesty, picking any relatively established Ancient and going 'I want their unbiased opinion' is folly, because every noteworthy Ancient has already staked a claim either explicitly or implicitly, or is Azem whose presence would render the entire argument meaningless by nature of their character (I've mentioned before, but because Azem is essentially our self-insert then whatever choice they make would be therefore the choice everyone would take as 'correct', thereby invalidating the moral subjectivity of the question). Even if Elidibus was playing mediator, we couldn't take the argument through his eyes as truly unbiased, because we as the audience know which side he landed on; that means that we know any positive points on Venat's side, or negatives on the Convocation's, are ultimately meaningless because we know we're just following a trail to a known conclusion.

An impartial account has to come from someone like Sappho; someone so completely inconsequential to the overall story that we don't have anything that could possibly prejudice our reading of where they'd end up.

(And yes, Sappho is my go-to 'random nothing-special Ancient' because she's the only one whose name I remember.)

[Lyth]

The primal Elidibus who left Zodiark to 'save the world' as the 'embodiment of hope' is a shadow of the person he once was. Even setting aside the state that we encounter him in during the MSQ 'Hope's Confluence', Emet himself notes the same in 'Ere Our Curtain Falls':

'I had little difficulty reading Elidibus' uncertainty this time. He couldn't remember. If his clenched fists were any indication, he shared my conclusion: yet another part of him had been lost. Ever since the day he had reappeared to us as the embodiment of "hope", time's tides had conspired to wash away what bits and pieces remained of the person he once was.'

It's frightening to realize that the only person who was ever compos mentis in the Ascian leadership was Emet.

I suspect that on some level, Azem was the inspiration for the primal of hope that Elidibius transformed into after being sacrificed to Zodiark, even the conscious memories of his friend have long since been eroded. There's of course the admiration which Eldibius shows towards Azem in 'Ere Our Curtain Falls'. But there's also an interesting little scene in the Crystal Tower just prior to your final showdown with Elidibus, where G'raha delivers the line 'I was right to trust in you and the power of your legacy - of your name. To let them guide my every deed.' Azem recognizes the obvious parallel to Elidibus' quote. When you question G'raha about it further and point out the similarity in their words, he explains how he looks up to you and how you inspired him.

It'll be an interesting one to rewatch as the storyline for Pandaemonium unfolds and we get our first proper glimpse of Elidibus the person, as I feel that the parallel between those two characters was very deliberately done.

[Lauront]

Okay, so there's something that gives a bit more detail on this one, and it shows better the truth of what happened. From the second Emet-Selch Tales from the Shadows (the 'Azem Vs The Volcano' one):



So this gives us a timeframe; this is specifically after the second sacrifice, but before the Convocation were locked in on the third. If we want to put together an actual chronology, we know that the Anamnesis meeting was after this, because at that point the Convocation were certain and unyielding. But, now take into account his line after becoming what we now know is a primal, as well as the heart of Zodiark: "You will make the right choice, and I will see it through."

He's not extending impartiality, he's extending certainty. The assurance that the choice they make will be the right one--and as Zodiark's heart, there was only ever one road he was going to go down. He 'reconciled' by leading people down one specific road--and you can tell from the Anamnesis meeting, the opposing side wasn't quelled, they were shut out.

Yes, I am well aware of these sources, seeing as I have referenced them multiple times here. I'm afraid you're simply filling in gaps at this point with your own speculation, which is fine; but it's all it is. I could just as easily paint the picture that Elidibus's return 1) cemented the idea that their plan is feasible and 2) conveyed to the surviving ancients that those within him were in a limbo and thus sufficed to quash any doubts on the feasibility of that plan or about any concerns as to whether those inside Zodiark would feel wronged by the Convocation enacting this plan. His role as Emissary is there to reconcile conflicting opinions. The bolded is simply spin. Zodiark had no inherent interest in the affair because the primal lacks any will outside of Elidibus and this is an exchange of life for life, so the primal gains nothing on net. So at best Elidibus would be voicing the discontent of the thoughts of the souls inside the primal.

With that, compared to a faction exhorting their people to embrace suffering, without offering any concrete rationale for it that we can see, when their society had managed to curtail many of the things causing it, it is easy to see why her faction would be "shut out" and their concerns dismissed. There is no dispute from her faction that their goal was to steer the star on the best possible future - that comes from her own mouth.

Perhaps now you will appreciate why Kizuya wanted to see that scene play out.

It's an interesting thought, but I think that is making a lot of assumptions for what is a very vaguely described event in the novella. Here Emet-selch is speaking of the people, not simply the Convocation, and as Elidibus says in his death, this division over the star's fate was not 'fleeting.' That it came after the second sacrifice (because that is when the disagreement began to appear) was already quite apparent, and doesn't narrow things down as much as one might think. It's also important to bear in mind that in the Anamnesis scene, an Ancient mentions themselves singularly being ignored by the Convocation. Nothing is mentioned of a response in a group context and we get nothing of how the Convocation might have reacted in a post-Hydaelyn scenario. Heck, since Emet-selch is referring more broadly to the people, that novella scene could have been after Hydaelyn's summoning, for all we know. According to Emet-selch the two fought for a long time so really anything's possible.

As for the separation from Zodiark itself, I think it is pretty safe to assume that it was of Elidibus's own volition. Even if it were a summoning made through some unconscious wish, akin to Louisoix as the Phoenix, would it not stand to reason those people would have simply conjured a primal out of thin air, from their prayers? It makes little sense to me that such wishes would carve out the heart of Zodiark.

There are just too many missing pieces to come to a definite conclusion on any of it, but in response to supposition I will supply my own. I think Elidibus did very much have it within his capability to mediate impartially. Above all else, above his role as Zodiark's heart, his role was one of reconciliation, that was his duty, and it is what he finally remembers as he dies. If Elidibus were truly a slave to Zodiark, I don't believe he would have left him masterless and vulnerable, to a point where Hydaelyn could be a match for him. In his death we learn that what Elidibus truly valued was the smiling faces of those he loved, (which is more directly referred to in his JP final words) and I think reconciliation in a truer sense than shutting out naysayers would be what he'd have pursued. Where you see "You will make the right choice" as "You will make my choice," I see it as a reassuring "You will find the right choice."

Elidibus does not even compel Fandaniel's obedience. He simply tries to convince him through argument. Were he to desire the compulsion of obedience, why even leave the primal? I agree with your interpretation of it, anyway. I suspect it is why their supporters' numbers eventually dwindled to just a few. My belief is Elidibus helped make the argument by way of demonstration - and that's why it would've been nice to see this stuff play out, rather than some poor strawman ancients drawing the supreme deity's ire.

[jameseoakes]

There are just too many missing pieces to come to a definite conclusion on any of it, but in response to supposition I will supply my own. I think Elidibus did very much have it within his capability to mediate impartially. Above all else, above his role as Zodiark's heart, his role was one of reconciliation, that was his duty, and it is what he finally remembers as he dies. If Elidibus were truly a slave to Zodiark, I don't believe he would have left him masterless and vulnerable, to a point where Hydaelyn could be a match for him. "

I don't really get the tempering part of the ascians at the moment, Zodiark doesn't seem to have any actual will or personality so I'm not quite sure how they're tempered. If they are tempered shoudn't they be tempered to Elidibus will?

[Cleretic]

Perhaps now you will appreciate why Kizuya wanted to see that scene play out.

I actually expect that Kizuya wants to see the scene play out for much the reason that I, a couple posts above yours, outlined why Elidibus can never provide an unbiased source: because even if he was at one point an unbiased source on a personal level (which I'm not convinced of, but will concede that it's plausible, even if it's not important), narratively he is not, because we know where he ends up going. Elidibus' perspective therefore cannot be read as in any way neutral, because we know the context isn't a completely neutral account of facts: it's 'how Elidibus ultimately decided to go for Plan Zodiark'.

I think the reason Kizuna decided that the 'unbiased account' they wanted was specifically from Elidibus was because of exactly that. Their view on this is pretty blatantly worn in their signature, they think Hydaelyn's outlook is terrible and cruel. They chose Elidibus as their 'unbiased' person because he would give exactly the statement they want to hear: 'from my neutral perspective, Zodiark Is Right'.

[MikkoAkure]

I don't really get the tempering part of the ascians at the moment, Zodiark doesn't seem to have any actual will or personality so I'm not quite sure how they're tempered. If they are tempered shoudn't they be tempered to Elidibus will?

From my perspective, the tempering relates to the directive that was given to Zodiark when he was summoned. You can see it more in Elidibus and the whole theme of 5.3 when they talk about his loss of identity and how he’s a shell of his former self and most of what’s left is just Zodiark programming left on auto-pilot.

We know the others were tempered because Emet-Selch himself says so, but it’s obviously a light enough one where they have an amount of free-will and aren’t completely dominated. I feel like it would just be a slight but continuous push to keep going by the directive. Except maybe some of the Sundered and the scenes they’re all gathered together and praise “the one true god”.

We also know that like all other tempering, it affected their aetheric balance because all the shadowy effects their magic uses and the fact that they cannot stand to be under the light of the First for very long.

[Lauront]

*snip*

If you say so. Meanwhile I still fail to see how he's "biased" in this regard when there's nothing to suggest the primal influenced his decision one way or another at that point in time... and the character is also accessible with any tempering cleansed from him, but it's all besides the point, since you can also write around that by just actually showing the scenes in question to the player rather than having it stem from one or another perspective, rather than mere fast-forward scenes omitting much of this detail. I believe all Kizuya is asking for is for them to lay this stuff bare, including the sundering, and I consider that to be a fair request.

I don't really get the tempering part of the ascians at the moment, Zodiark doesn't seem to have any actual will or personality so I'm not quite sure how they're tempered. If they are tempered shoudn't they be tempered to Elidibus will?

It's ultimately an alignment of their aether to his. Tempering can, over time, result in the tempered becoming fixated on the primal. I suspect they threw it in to explain the zeal of Lahabrea and Nabriales, and why they also correlated it negatively (i.e. inversely) to preserving memory/identity, to explain why Emet-Selch is able to deviate from their plan. But in terms of Elidibus wielding this over the others? Yes, there's nothing ever adduced to that effect. Elidibus's main rationale for refusing to replenish his memories is so that he can fixate entirely on his duty, which derives from the Convocation, to which Zodiark is ultimately an instrument for restoring their star.