Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Lauront]

Okay, so there's something that gives a bit more detail on this one, and it shows better the truth of what happened. From the second Emet-Selch Tales from the Shadows (the 'Azem Vs The Volcano' one):



So this gives us a timeframe; this is specifically after the second sacrifice, but before the Convocation were locked in on the third. If we want to put together an actual chronology, we know that the Anamnesis meeting was after this, because at that point the Convocation were certain and unyielding. But, now take into account his line after becoming what we now know is a primal, as well as the heart of Zodiark: "You will make the right choice, and I will see it through."

He's not extending impartiality, he's extending certainty. The assurance that the choice they make will be the right one--and as Zodiark's heart, there was only ever one road he was going to go down. He 'reconciled' by leading people down one specific road--and you can tell from the Anamnesis meeting, the opposing side wasn't quelled, they were shut out.

Yes, I am well aware of these sources, seeing as I have referenced them multiple times here. I'm afraid you're simply filling in gaps at this point with your own speculation, which is fine; but it's all it is. I could just as easily paint the picture that Elidibus's return 1) cemented the idea that their plan is feasible and 2) conveyed to the surviving ancients that those within him were in a limbo and thus sufficed to quash any doubts on the feasibility of that plan or about any concerns as to whether those inside Zodiark would feel wronged by the Convocation enacting this plan. His role as Emissary is there to reconcile conflicting opinions. The bolded is simply spin. Zodiark had no inherent interest in the affair because the primal lacks any will outside of Elidibus and this is an exchange of life for life, so the primal gains nothing on net. So at best Elidibus would be voicing the discontent of the thoughts of the souls inside the primal.

With that, compared to a faction exhorting their people to embrace suffering, without offering any concrete rationale for it that we can see, when their society had managed to curtail many of the things causing it, it is easy to see why her faction would be "shut out" and their concerns dismissed. There is no dispute from her faction that their goal was to steer the star on the best possible future - that comes from her own mouth.

Perhaps now you will appreciate why Kizuya wanted to see that scene play out.

It's an interesting thought, but I think that is making a lot of assumptions for what is a very vaguely described event in the novella. Here Emet-selch is speaking of the people, not simply the Convocation, and as Elidibus says in his death, this division over the star's fate was not 'fleeting.' That it came after the second sacrifice (because that is when the disagreement began to appear) was already quite apparent, and doesn't narrow things down as much as one might think. It's also important to bear in mind that in the Anamnesis scene, an Ancient mentions themselves singularly being ignored by the Convocation. Nothing is mentioned of a response in a group context and we get nothing of how the Convocation might have reacted in a post-Hydaelyn scenario. Heck, since Emet-selch is referring more broadly to the people, that novella scene could have been after Hydaelyn's summoning, for all we know. According to Emet-selch the two fought for a long time so really anything's possible.

As for the separation from Zodiark itself, I think it is pretty safe to assume that it was of Elidibus's own volition. Even if it were a summoning made through some unconscious wish, akin to Louisoix as the Phoenix, would it not stand to reason those people would have simply conjured a primal out of thin air, from their prayers? It makes little sense to me that such wishes would carve out the heart of Zodiark.

There are just too many missing pieces to come to a definite conclusion on any of it, but in response to supposition I will supply my own. I think Elidibus did very much have it within his capability to mediate impartially. Above all else, above his role as Zodiark's heart, his role was one of reconciliation, that was his duty, and it is what he finally remembers as he dies. If Elidibus were truly a slave to Zodiark, I don't believe he would have left him masterless and vulnerable, to a point where Hydaelyn could be a match for him. In his death we learn that what Elidibus truly valued was the smiling faces of those he loved, (which is more directly referred to in his JP final words) and I think reconciliation in a truer sense than shutting out naysayers would be what he'd have pursued. Where you see "You will make the right choice" as "You will make my choice," I see it as a reassuring "You will find the right choice."

Elidibus does not even compel Fandaniel's obedience. He simply tries to convince him through argument. Were he to desire the compulsion of obedience, why even leave the primal? I agree with your interpretation of it, anyway. I suspect it is why their supporters' numbers eventually dwindled to just a few. My belief is Elidibus helped make the argument by way of demonstration - and that's why it would've been nice to see this stuff play out, rather than some poor strawman ancients drawing the supreme deity's ire.

[Cleretic]

Perhaps now you will appreciate why Kizuya wanted to see that scene play out.

I actually expect that Kizuya wants to see the scene play out for much the reason that I, a couple posts above yours, outlined why Elidibus can never provide an unbiased source: because even if he was at one point an unbiased source on a personal level (which I'm not convinced of, but will concede that it's plausible, even if it's not important), narratively he is not, because we know where he ends up going. Elidibus' perspective therefore cannot be read as in any way neutral, because we know the context isn't a completely neutral account of facts: it's 'how Elidibus ultimately decided to go for Plan Zodiark'.

I think the reason Kizuna decided that the 'unbiased account' they wanted was specifically from Elidibus was because of exactly that. Their view on this is pretty blatantly worn in their signature, they think Hydaelyn's outlook is terrible and cruel. They chose Elidibus as their 'unbiased' person because he would give exactly the statement they want to hear: 'from my neutral perspective, Zodiark Is Right'.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I actually expect that Kizuya wants to see the scene play out for much the reason that I, a couple posts above yours, outlined why Elidibus can never provide an unbiased source: because even if he was at one point an unbiased source on a personal level (which I'm not convinced of, but will concede that it's plausible, even if it's not important), narratively he is not, because we know where he ends up going. Elidibus' perspective therefore cannot be read as in any way neutral, because we know the context isn't a completely neutral account of facts: it's 'how Elidibus ultimately decided to go for Plan Zodiark'.

I think the reason Kizuna decided that the 'unbiased account' they wanted was specifically from Elidibus was because of exactly that. Their view on this is pretty blatantly worn in their signature, they think Hydaelyn's outlook is terrible and cruel. They chose Elidibus as their 'unbiased' person because he would give exactly the statement they want to hear: 'from my neutral perspective, Zodiark Is Right'.

You’re free to jump to any conclusions, as incorrect as they may be. From a comparison of Venat vs Emet’s PoV, i very much think Elidibus’ pov would be one in a fairly unbiased light, as his duty was the salvation of the star and it’s people. I never even mentioned anything about Zodiark being right, that’s not even what this conversation is abo it, it’s about the biased representations given to us of certain events. Elidibus at this point was essentially a 3rd party in the debate of Convocation vs Venat’s group. Based on his dialogue he would indeed serve as a mediator presumably for both groups hence hearing and seeing both sides. I’m not sure what else there is to argue when we have concrete evidence of this in his dying dialogue, unless we’re going to accuse him of lying on his deathbed.

[EaraGrace]

You’re free to jump to any conclusions, as incorrect as they may be. From a comparison of Venat vs Emet’s PoV, i very much think Elidibus’ pov would be one in a fairly unbiased light, as his duty was the salvation of the star and it’s people. I never even mentioned anything about Zodiark being right, that’s not even what this conversation is abo it, it’s about the biased representations given to us of certain events. Elidibus at this point was essentially a 3rd party in the debate of Convocation vs Venat’s group. Based on his dialogue he would indeed serve as a mediator presumably for both groups hence hearing and seeing both sides. I’m not sure what else there is to argue when we have concrete evidence of this in his dying dialogue, unless we’re going to accuse him of lying on his deathbed.

The whole point of Elidibus’ storyline in 5.3 was to show that being Zodiarks heart changed him, that the voices of his brethren had long drowned out his own. When he speaks of “steering the star on its true course,” and we hear what Venats group says of the Convocations reaction to their disagreement, are we not to conclude that Elidibus mediated nothing? Venats group certainly didn’t feel like they’d been heard, and the decision to go ahead with the third sacrifice happened anyway. His intention may have been rooted in solving the dispute, but whether he was still capable of being a mediator is uncertain.

And let it be clear that Elidibus was an Ascian through and through. His loyalties were to Zodiark and to the resurrection of his brethren.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The whole point of Elidibus’ storyline in 5.3 was to show that being Zodiarks heart changed him, that the voices of his brethren had long drowned out his own. When he speaks of “steering the star on its true course,” and we hear what Venats group says of the Convocations reaction to their disagreement, are we not to conclude that Elidibus mediated nothing? Venats group certainly didn’t feel like they’d been heard, and the decision to go ahead with the third sacrifice happened anyway. His intention may have been rooted in solving the dispute, but whether he was still capable of being a mediator is uncertain.

And let it be clear that Elidibus was an Ascian through and through. His loyalties were to Zodiark and to the resurrection of his brethren.

The only thing supporting this is Yshtola's hypothesis, which as we've seen time and time again, is usually incorrect. We dont even know if Elidibus had the chance to mediate with either group is my point. Perhaps by the time he was able to the sundering was already happening.

We're talking pre-sundering here maam. He wasnt an ascian at that point lol. People really need to learn to differentiate the terms.

[Kordarion]

The only thing supporting this is Yshtola's hypothesis, which as we've seen time and time again, is usually incorrect. We dont even know if Elidibus had the chance to mediate with either group is my point. Perhaps by the time he was able to the sundering was already happening.

We're talking pre-sundering here maam. He wasnt an ascian at that point lol. People really need to learn to differentiate the terms.

The whole point of a mediating figure is that they are an objective third party, it does not take a genius to see that Elidibus cannot be an objective third party. He agreed with summoning Zodiark in the first place, not to mention the fact that he serves as Zodiark's heart which makes him the will/driving force behind Zodiark as far as I am aware, therefore how can he be a third party if he is so intertwined with one side of the debate, it doesn't make any sense for him to be so.

Sure it isn't sated as such in game but it isn't a leap of logic to see how Elidibus would fail to be an effective or unbiased mediator following his becoming Zodiark's heart.

[SpectrePhantasia]

The whole point of a mediating figure is that they are an objective third party, it does not take a genius to see that Elidibus cannot be an objective third party. He agreed with summoning Zodiark in the first place

With the exception of Azem, (for a reason we do not know) next to no one disagreed with summoning Zodiark. Not even Venat discounts the fact that using him was essentially the only thing that the Ancients could do to survive, and continued to be the only reason people were surviving for the next 12,000 years. Elidibus made that choice and took that burden when the Ancients as a people had unanimously decided upon that course, before conflicts had ever arisen in the first place. There was nothing to 'agree' with, it was just the right thing to do. I fail to see how taking up the mantle of Zodiark when he was inarguably their only option belies some inherent bias on his part. I also don't think looking at Elidibus the way he is when their circumstances are completely different several millennia later helps to gleam how he would have acted then.

I also take issue with the placement of Elidibus's emergence from Zodiark being this early on in the timeline, as is being speculated here. The novella offers no further clarity on that front than what we already had. Again, Emet-selch was not talking of specifically the Convocation in that passage, or if he was, it isn't made clear, so we can't know if when the Anamnesis scene occurred, Elidibus was even there yet or not. If it is the Convocation, why is there apprehension towards Zodiark in the first place? I thought they were tempered when he was summoned? In that case, why did Elidibus need to withdraw himself at all? Either the tempering doesn't matter, or this is not referring to only the Convocation. Or maybe they were tempered but only a little bit because their souls are so massive they're resistant, so they kind of but not really have their own will?

See there are just too many unknown variables to come to a conclusion anyone will be even halfway satisfied with. Zodiark's tempering, the proper timeline of events; we are left in the dark on all of it, when we really should not have been. I get leaving some things to the imagination, but at this point we are making entire headcanon scenarios out of the tiniest scraps. I don't think this avenue is really gonna lead anywhere.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The whole point of a mediating figure is that they are an objective third party, it does not take a genius to see that Elidibus cannot be an objective third party. He agreed with summoning Zodiark in the first place, not to mention the fact that he serves as Zodiark's heart which makes him the will/driving force behind Zodiark as far as I am aware, therefore how can he be a third party if he is so intertwined with one side of the debate, it doesn't make any sense for him to be so.

Sure it isn't sated as such in game but it isn't a leap of logic to see how Elidibus would fail to be an effective or unbiased mediator following his becoming Zodiark's heart.

Someone else already stated it but just to reiterate, Zodiark was a necessary solution in the grand scheme of thing and one that didn’t seem to have many in opposition to it. Like Spectre said i believe it was, we need to learn to separate future selves from past. They have no ties to their future selves at this point, they’re their own person. Considering his only goal that we can see is the salvation of the star and it’s people it’s a pretty unbiased account.

Something else to bring up since i’m seeing some talk about tempering. Keep in mind that even the tempered convocation disagreed on the 3rd set of sacrifices at first, so the tempering seems to be close to non-existent in all honesty.

Correct. Lahabrea grew worse with time. I have not and will not dispute that fact. You may notice that I even said as much my post a moment ago. That being said, at least a couple of the NPCs in Elpis do make reference to Lahabrea not exactly being the most sane individual. Even putting that aside, there's a whole prison filled with experiments that would be (and are stated to be) considered abominable even by Ancient standards. When I say off his rocker, I don't mean the raving lunatic we saw in ARR in Heavensward. I mean mentally unstable and seemingly lacking in a properly functioning moral compass as relates to the rest of his people.

I maintain that Lahabrea's greatly affected mental faculties as of ARR/Heavensward mean we should not use him as an example of Zodiark's effect upon the Ancients, as his zealot-like devotion appears to stem mostly from his own damaged mind rather than any actual primal influence.

While i certainly think he is probably still grieving for his wife, i dont think its entirely a matter of being sane. Keeping in mind Yoshi P attributed Lahabrea to himself in that in the end he's a very hard working individual...and then also remembering back to that Elidibus vision we had of him telling Elidibus to go outside and relax etc which presumably happens after the events of Elpis, i dont think anything so far points to him being crazy. As for Pandemonium, i think people just look at it from the outside. The way i see it, it's another chance for the more dangerous creations to run free in their little domains and still help research.

[EaraGrace]

The only thing supporting this is Yshtola's hypothesis, which as we've seen time and time again, is usually incorrect. We dont even know if Elidibus had the chance to mediate with either group is my point. Perhaps by the time he was able to the sundering was already happening.

We're talking pre-sundering here maam. He wasnt an ascian at that point lol. People really need to learn to differentiate the terms.

I’d actually say she’s rarely incorrect, and more often than not plays the role of “explainer for the audience.” Not to mention Elidibus himself seemed to tacitly confirm her suspicions, and then there’s him mindlessly wandering up to us compelled by the desire for salvation… I think it’s clear what occurred.

And considering he was hanging out with Emet when the Sundering occurred, and Venats group only decided to move forward with their plan after the Convocation decided to go ahead with the third sacrifice, he definitely did have time to mediate. The fact that those who reached out to the Convocation didn’t feel heard doesn’t make it sound like it was going well however.

I could also do without the snark, friend.

[Cleretic]

I’d actually say she’s rarely incorrect, and more often than not plays the role of “explainer for the audience.” Not to mention Elidibus himself seemed to tacitly confirm her suspicions, and then there’s him mindlessly wandering up to us compelled by the desire for salvation… I think it’s clear what occurred.

And considering he was hanging out with Emet when the Sundering occurred, and Venats group only decided to move forward with their plan after the Convocation decided to go ahead with the third sacrifice, he definitely did have time to mediate. The fact that those who reached out to the Convocation didn’t feel heard doesn’t make it sound like it was going well however.

I could also do without the snark, friend.

Y'shtola is part of a general lineup of 'smart people we're meant to trust about intellectual subjects', along with Urianger, G'raha Tia, and in some subjects Emet-Selch. Basically, the Masters of Infodump. I don't think she was ever wrong about anything that wasn't later found out to be a widespread misconception in the first place until she assumed that a Blasphemy's soul was just gone, and even that was a perfectly reasonable misunderstanding. Her eyeballing of Elidibus has no clear false assumptions in it, and Y'shtola herself hadn't made false assumptions at that point, so we can assume her read on the guy's weird nature to be largely accurate.

I wouldn't say that to be a negative about any of those characters, for what it's worth, those sorts of people are important for building a believable setting. We're not gonna crack out an aetherology textbook, and we aren't reading a book with a helpful narrator, so Y'shtola tells us things we can assume to be facts. The only curveball there is Emet-Selch; being that he's both a font of infodumps and had a confirmed biased and incomplete view of what he was talking about, he was in an odd position where we had to trust him to be both telling the truth and leaving out or coloring details, either willingly or unknowingly.