Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[BaconBits]

Which is funny because after the lvl 85 Healing Potency trait buff, right now Medica 2 is the exact same cast time as Cure II, the exact same MP cost as Cure II. . . AND MORE TOTAL POTENCY ON EVERY TARGET IT HITS.

Medica II: 1000 total Potency. Cure II: 800 Potency.

Medica II is better than Cure II on a potency basis in every way. You can't make this up. . . This is a prime example of why people say the devs have no idea how healers actually play or how they interact.



I wouldn't mind if Lustrate got the Taurochole treatment and reduced the target's damage taken.

I genuinely have no words.

[zcrash970]

I genuinely have no words.

Goes to further prove that devs literally did not playtest anything for this expansion.

Smn
Dragon kick mnk
Paradox blm
Drk
Whm
War self heal insanity

Like there's a difference between unbalanced and untested

[Ixon]

Goes to further prove that devs literally did not playtest anything for this expansion.

Smn
Dragon kick mnk
Paradox blm
Drk
Whm
War self heal insanity

Like there's a difference between unbalanced and untested

I don't think trying to hold SE accountable for things like Dragon Kick MNK or Paradox BLM is in the same category. There is no PTR, so they are reliant on their dev team and internal testers. Not to mention jobs are designed to be played in a certain way. However, Yoshi-P himself has stated many times that they will never be as smart as their players, which isn't a bad thing, it's just a fact. However many hundred of devs is nothing compared to the millions that play the game, and there is a good chance the player will find a way to play the job better than the devs ever intended. Same thought process applies with intended raid strategies vs what the player comes up with. Sometimes it's broken like NIN at NIN's release, and sometimes it's fun like MNK double TK opener in SB or how again MNK can do the double Solar opener to align Phantom Rush with 2-min burst where Yoshi-P himself stated in Drak's interview it wasn't designed with that in mind.

SMN is just a playstyle conflict(old mains hate it, new players seem to love it), and WAR self healing was always insane, it's just easier to access now. I think really DRK and WHM are the unanimously disliked kits on that list that have nothing really to do with anything other than their less fun gameplay.(DRK being in almost every world first and WHM being in slightly less if I recall.) To be fair, I dropped DRK in SB because I disliked the direction myself, but now I'm a happy GNB main.

[Darnath]

I don't think trying to hold SE accountable for things like Dragon Kick MNK or Paradox BLM is in the same category. There is no PTR, so they are reliant on their dev team and internal testers. Not to mention jobs are designed to be played in a certain way. However, Yoshi-P himself has stated many times that they will never be as smart as their players, which isn't a bad thing, it's just a fact. However many hundred of devs is nothing compared to the millions that play the game, and there is a good chance the player will find a way to play the job better than the devs ever intended. Same thought process applies with intended raid strategies vs what the player comes up with. Sometimes it's broken like NIN at NIN's release, and sometimes it's fun like MNK double TK opener in SB or how again MNK can do the double Solar opener to align Phantom Rush with 2-min burst where Yoshi-P himself stated in Drak's interview it wasn't designed with that in mind.

SMN is just a playstyle conflict(old mains hate it, new players seem to love it), and WAR self healing was always insane, it's just easier to access now. I think really DRK and WHM are the unanimously disliked kits on that list that have nothing really to do with anything other than their less fun gameplay.(DRK being in almost every world first and WHM being in slightly less if I recall.) To be fair, I dropped DRK in SB because I disliked the direction myself, but now I'm a happy GNB main.

Yup, players being more clever than the devs/testers, especially with how broken some jobs are now (WAR tanks) sometimes makes me wish there was a PTR but ONLY.. ONLY for job testing. No new content, just job testing. Some days I wonder if the devs only test certain jobs and others are just "throw darts and whatever sticks, we apply"

[Sebazy]

Not to mention jobs are designed to be played in a certain way. However, Yoshi-P himself has stated many times that they will never be as smart as their players, which isn't a bad thing, it's just a fact. However many hundred of devs is nothing compared to the millions that play the game, and there is a good chance the player will find a way to play the job better than the devs ever intended.

Just to chip in a small addition to this point here.

It's important to remember that they have 5 or 6 battle system designers total depending on how much Sato's role leads towards production management now.

If SE had hundreds of devs (Or even a consistent testing team of that scale with experience and skill comparable to a prog raiding static) then I don't think they would be making the significant oversights and mistakes that are pretty much a given with each expansion release. This pattern of releasing a few jobs in a state somewhere between non competitive and barely functional and then having to spend the next 6 months worth of patches simply fixing them is both predictable and a huge waste of their time.

As of right now I assume they have a similar setup to what I had at EA/Bullfrog with a large shared pool of testers and a system that simply dishes out tickets and assignments randomly as testers become available. This is backed up by how Yoshida talked about the difficulties and compromises the testing team had to make back in HW and Gordias (which in turn resulted in infamously wonky DPS checks). That's fine for a standalone single player style game or a multiplayer game that has more in common with it's peers. But FFXIV's end game is quite different to the competition and it takes time to adjust.

[VentVanitas]

This pattern of releasing a few jobs in a state somewhere between non competitive and barely functional and then having to spend the next 6 months worth of patches simply fixing them is both predictable and a huge waste of their time.

I can't stress enough how important this specific statement is. A lot of problems with jobs are almost always identified immediately when new changes are presented, but only very few of these issues are addressed while others are ignored or procrastinated on for a later patch. They waste a lot of development time fixing their own easily preventable design problems, most of which can be avoided had they stopped being so selective in their feedback.

[ForteNightshade]

If SE had hundreds of devs (Or even a consistent testing team of that scale with experience and skill comparable to a prog raiding static) then I don't think they would be making the significant oversights and mistakes that are pretty much a given with each expansion release. This pattern of releasing a few jobs in a state somewhere between non competitive and barely functional and then having to spend the next 6 months worth of patches simply fixing them is both predictable and a huge waste of their time.

Meanwhile, the continual irony is people will prop up how incredibly balanced all the jobs are despite them being anything but. Presently, we're seeing comically high DPS discrepancies that simply shouldn't exist this long into an expansion cycle. For specific highlights:

White Mage is worthless. And I don't say that to be hyperbolic. The job offers literally nothing its counterpart Healers don't perform better at. Since the release of Endwalker White Mage has: the lowest DPS output, the weakest MP economy, the least mobility, the weakest healing flexibility and is the least able to recover from dying. Simply put, White Mage does nothing. It's downright baffling and a little embarrassing it was left in this state come 6.08. Unfortunately, White Mage remains incredibly popular at a casual level. So it may be left to rot for several patches.

Another major balance issue is the Physical Range. Nevermind the whole range tax is nonsense, Machinist is so woefully inferior DPS wise, the job may as well not exist. The supposedly selfish DPS job can't keep up with Dancer of all jobs. A similar problem has happened with the Casters as Black Mage utterly dwarfs Red Mage and Summoner since its 6.08 buffs—to the tune of nearly 1,000 rDPS. It's insane just how much stronger Black Mage is. And before anyone mentions it being the selfish Caster. Dragoon, Reaper, Monk and even Ninja are all reasonably competitive with Samurai despite its selfish nature. Hence why right now the only role decently balanced are the Melee. Bit ironic considering how the role started.

[Liam_Harper]

Meanwhile, the continual irony is people will prop up how incredibly balanced all the jobs are despite them being anything but. Presently, we're seeing comically high DPS discrepancies that simply shouldn't exist this long into an expansion cycle. For specific highlights:

I expect one of the reasons is they "balance" it by making content easier in terms of enrage timers and healing required. When content is easy other than resolving mechanics, it matters less whether the individual classes you bring are bad and more whether your team can do mechs correctly. Thus creating an artificial illusion of "balance" where all classes are fine.

Very little content in the game has tight dps checks now. Normal has almost no dps checks or enrage. EX is extremely lenient. Even Savage is designed so it can be cleared with multiple deaths, 50% uptime healers and a few single digit parsing dps as long as half the group is competent. Ultimate is known for low dps checks and being mechanics focused.
Same for healing, everything in the game requires very little healing and the cases that do, GCD heals are so strong even a WHM can churn out a few 1000 potency Medica IIs and cover it. The GCD heal dps loss won't matter because enrage timers don't matter much.
There's also the 1 phys ranged, 1 caster, 1 melee restriction as well as the fact that buffs from the same class don't stack, to discourage players from trying to exclude the "bad" classes and stack the good ones. It's not that bad to bring a MCH because hey, you get your 1% party bonus. "Balanced" without the work of actually balancing.

In the very rare cases healing or dps isn't easy and it actually matters, balance goes out the window. The best example is WHM in p3s, where suddenly it statistically goes from being the most popular healer to one of the least popular. Why bring the barebones rubbish healer when there's actually a difficult healing mechanic that can make or break a clear, that AST laughs at. Or the "no PLD" groups for early tier prog where damage was more important.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Meanwhile, the continual irony is people will prop up how incredibly balanced all the jobs are despite them being anything but. Presently, we're seeing comically high DPS discrepancies that simply shouldn't exist this long into an expansion cycle. For specific highlights:

White Mage is worthless. And I don't say that to be hyperbolic. The job offers literally nothing its counterpart Healers don't perform better at. Since the release of Endwalker White Mage has: the lowest DPS output, the weakest MP economy, the least mobility, the weakest healing flexibility and is the least able to recover from dying. Simply put, White Mage does nothing. It's downright baffling and a little embarrassing it was left in this state come 6.08. Unfortunately, White Mage remains incredibly popular at a casual level. So it may be left to rot for several patches.

Another major balance issue is the Physical Range. Nevermind the whole range tax is nonsense, Machinist is so woefully inferior DPS wise, the job may as well not exist. The supposedly selfish DPS job can't keep up with Dancer of all jobs. A similar problem has happened with the Casters as Black Mage utterly dwarfs Red Mage and Summoner since its 6.08 buffs—to the tune of nearly 1,000 rDPS. It's insane just how much stronger Black Mage is. And before anyone mentions it being the selfish Caster. Dragoon, Reaper, Monk and even Ninja are all reasonably competitive with Samurai despite its selfish nature. Hence why right now the only role decently balanced are the Melee. Bit ironic considering how the role started.

It may be intentional design that certain iconic jobs are just easier to play and optimization is less important to the devs. If a new player can come in and do okay as a WHM or SMN or RPR, then the popular "entry level jobs" are performing as intended.

Put another way, and using casters as I think a pretty clear example, what if the devs' idea of "balance" is having a job for every level of skill?

* SMN - beginners, casual
* RDM - intermediate, prog
* BLM - expert, current raid tier and Ultimate

You can even see a similar spectrum across Maiming vs. Striking (although I'm not sure where NIN was *intended* to fall in that spectrum).

Does that obviate a hope that jobs can still be balanced at all levels of play? Not at all. Does that still suck for people who mained WHM prior to this rebalancing? Absolutely. But I do think it is important to keep in mind that there may be other factors at play. The more jobs we have, the less important job balance actually becomes if there are other prevailing priorities like accessibility.

I also have no idea how WHM plays at lower levels and if it actually *is* more accessible than the other healers. But I have a strong hunch it probably is the most intuitive of the healing jobs, despite all its inefficiencies, because compared to the other healers the concept is quite direct and gimmick-free.

[ASkellington]

Put another way, and using casters as I think a pretty clear example, what if the devs' idea of "balance" is having a job for every level of skill?

That falls flat when tanks and healers do not have that distinction.

WHM is only "easy" because it isn't a proactive healer (shield) and doesn't have anything else to juggle (cards).

SGE imo is an easier SCH because it doesn't have the pet ai to mess with.

SCH isn't exactly hard either.

And AST? I'm an AST main and have been since I got into HW and all through EW. There is nothing hard about it even when you factor in the cards.

Besides all that focusing directly on the healers' primary job, there is nothing HARD about how they heal either. Shield healing is rather straightforward and both SGE and SCH have easy to use regens. Is it harder for them to recover from a party mess up? Yes but not by much.

AST would be a harder healer to use if it had both Benefics remove and only had ED for its burst healing and hand to rely solely on regens. It doesn't.

And WHM...


Also, while RDM and BLM are intermediate to hard to master, their bar to entry is still easy. They have growth. SMN mains are asking for that growth as are we healers.

RDM and BLM should be the standard design of jobs across the board. They aren't hard to do their basic job: damage. But they have intricacies to make DOING DAMAGE interesting.

Now if only healers and tanks could get that.