Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[SeverianLyonesse]

Few points - this concept of healers is the job with the most responsibility? No, this is what got us into this situation in the first place, along with this attitude of the "DPS can essentially hit random buttons and the fight will just take longer.. as long as the healer fixes their mistakes".

All, roles have responsibility. If you start to dissect them and labelling them as , well, this role has more , or that role has more, then you start have issues such has healing anxiety, tanxiety, etc. You start saying that can't find a healer or a tank. you start having developers talking about "well we need to make this role accessible"

However that is completely different from the discussion around difficulty/challenge, and yes, I don't think anyone disagree that as someone progresses from normal content to expert , savage and ultimate each job and role is expected to have more knowledge and be able to optimize. Irrespective of the degree of difficulty, the role should be engaging.

I agree with this, but I also don't think StriderShinryu is necessarily wrong...just that they are described the paradigm that, as you said, got us into this mess.

It's just really difficult to fairly and transparently allocate party responsibility when you have, on one side of the spectrum, something with a strict and obvious pass/fail indicator like keeping players alive, and on the other side of a spectrum, something where players are heavily discouraged from discussing any measure of DPS numbers. I don't think it is fair at all, but it is also just easier to blame healers because players are inherently given more data to point fingers at than bad DPS players (this is also why even mediocre tanks can fly under the radar without popping mitigation, because most DPS don't pay attention to the preventative measures, they just pay attention to whether the group wipes).

And I don't really know how to make it better, because the healers are just kind of the de facto scapegoat that allows the game to be so casual-friendly and "non-toxic." We overcompensate so that players can do practically no damage. And in many cases a lot of those players don't even know they aren't doing enough damage. And they can't know because then we would have DPS-shaming. But boy do I wish I at least had a personal DPS meter so I could at least keep track of my own performance, because I still am never very certain of my tank DPS, at least using the game's native tools.

[IDontPetLalas]

I agree with this, but I also don't think StriderShinryu is necessarily wrong...just that they are described the paradigm that, as you said, got us into this mess.

It's just really difficult to fairly and transparently allocate party responsibility when you have, on one side of the spectrum, something with a strict and obvious pass/fail indicator like keeping players alive, and on the other side of a spectrum, something where players are heavily discouraged from discussing any measure of DPS numbers. I don't think it is fair at all, but it is also just easier to blame healers because players are inherently given more data to point fingers at than bad DPS players (this is also why even mediocre tanks can fly under the radar without popping mitigation, because most DPS don't pay attention to the preventative measures, they just pay attention to whether the group wipes).

And I don't really know how to make it better, because the healers are just kind of the de facto scapegoat that allows the game to be so casual-friendly and "non-toxic." We overcompensate so that players can do practically no damage. And in many cases a lot of those players don't even know they aren't doing enough damage. And they can't know because then we would have DPS-shaming. But boy do I wish I at least had a personal DPS meter so I could at least keep track of my own performance, because I still am never very certain of my tank DPS, at least using the game's native tools.

some of my comments (not all) will not apply to those people who play with a static and/or usually interested in savage and more difficult content and know what they're doing, however-

1- we already have buff and debuff indicators- so there is no escaping or arguing with vulnerability stacks, who is using (for example) tank stance, or mitigation, or shroud, or any number or DPS enhancements.
2- we can already see who gets aoe heals, and who is does not, usually because they are never in in range
3- We can already tell if something is taking an abnormally long time to die, usually because some CD is up again..and again..and again.

None of the above require some that which can not be named measurement meter. it is in the UI (not that I am against personal use of said meter, the contratry0 .

Blaming healers is both laziness and scapegoating, due to many factors, whether you want to point to long-kept historic stereotyping of healer roles, or SE insisting on their particular healer design.

[SeverianLyonesse]

some of my comments (not all) will not apply to those people who play with a static and/or usually interested in savage and more difficult content and know what they're doing, however-

1- we already have buff and debuff indicators- so there is no escaping or arguing with vulnerability stacks, who is using (for example) tank stance, or mitigation, or shroud, or any number or DPS enhancements.
2- we can already see who gets aoe heals, and who is does not, usually because they are never in in range
3- We can already tell if something is taking an abnormally long time to die, usually because some CD is up again..and again..and again.

None of the above require some that which can not be named measurement meter. it is in the UI (not that I am against personal use of said meter, the contratry0 .

Blaming healers is both laziness and scapegoating, due to many factors, whether you want to point to long-kept historic stereotyping of healer roles, or SE insisting on their particular healer design.

I agree that we have these indicators. I also agree that blaming healers is lazy scapegoating.

I am just observing that the average player does not keep an eye for any of these things. Buff/debuff indicators have several thresholds of accessibility: (1) size, (2) legibility, (3) numerosity, (4) variety, (5) understanding typically limited to understanding of the specific job or enemy. And a DPS who doesn't stay close for heals or do their rotation right will generally never realize they are the problem without being called out on it. And this is why they scapegoat the healer. Because staying alive or wiping is one of the most basic things that they will be able to pay attention to.

I don't like it. But that is what we have, because there isn't a good system in place to encourage DPS (and to some extent tanks) to introspect on their own abilities. And again, I think that may be the way the game is intentionally designed: healers and tanks are given an excess of abilities to keep the party progressing, so that casual DPS players can have a lot of leeway "having fun." It's why Yoshi-P wants a DPS every expansion, but doesn't want players to be judging anyone on their DPS: the "casual DPS" is what keeps the game popular and selling well. We are the babysitters.

But just because we are babysitters doesn't mean we have to settle for spamming our basic spell 100 times. If Action-DPS is the way the game is going, we damn well deserve some attack rotations.