Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Brinne]

I've no doubt this was intentional along with not showing an accurate depiction of events and instead getting an abridged version from Venat's biased POV. EW did its best to gaslight the player into loving her, a faithful retelling of what happened would have painted her as an unforgivable monster and doubtful anyone would have pity or fondness for her after that. I also wonder if that's why Elidibus got the shaft because his version of events would have also clashed with their vision for Venat.

On the other hand, the imagery of her mercilessly punching Themis in the face while Answers swells in the background!

I'm not quite there yet. I'm mostly over my initial anger, now it's mourning the story we never got because for some reason the powers that be decided they didn't want to bother with it anymore. I'm not sure a couple of short stories on the Lodestone are going to fix that either. I still feel like we only saw Venat's side. Elidibus was memory impaired in ShB and then conveniently left out in EW except for time travel fuel and the raid storyline that has nothing to do with the Final Days. The Ascians were also lacking crucial information the whole time. There really wasn't a Zodiark in the finale, it was all the Hydaelyn show with a gundam suit battle with Fandaniel at level 83.

I genuinely encourage you to take whatever time and space you need to process, and that it's okay if you don't ever really get there. I think Endwalker made some serious missteps I wouldn't blame anyone for finding fundamentally unforgivable. That being said, I don't actually think most of it came from a place of malice - I think they came from a place of generally good intent, just good intentions that were focused so much toward encouraging the player that the integrity of the in-game narrative ended up suffering for it. When you look at things like Footfalls, the promo art of Zodiark and Hydaelyn both protecting the world, the way those elements were talked about, at least to me - it seems clear that what the team was aiming for was an inspiring, encouraging story of everyone, darkness or light-aligned, joining hands and uniting in purpose to save the world, and more importantly, believe in and support you. Everyone's behind you, you can do it! Emet-Selch is cheering you on, Hydaelyn is cheering you on! Don't succumb to despair! There's a self-consciousness threaded throughout the entire story of Endwalker being the Big Grand Emotional Finale, and the team has acknowledged before that most people are in a rough place due to the state of the world right now, that - I think it just culminated in that positive, uplifting tone being their priority.

The trick they tried to pull with Venat to make her lovable, make her support something to be welcomed, and assure you she "wasn't a bad guy" was tying her motives to you - and it's a trick that's been wildly successful with characters before. A lot of the love for the Crystal Exarch was based on the reveal that his biggest motivation was you; a lot of the intrigue for Emet-Selch, for many people, was based in his personal stake regarding you as someone he knew in the past. Haurchefant was the first sort of breakout character in the story, because he stood out as someone who particularly adored and was kind to you. They took those signals and patterns and probably deduced, for better or worse, that people would also love Hydaelyn with a reveal that "she was doing everything for you, actually." The Sundering would become a touching, if tragic, gesture, if it was done For You. And it seemed to have worked for a lot of people, too.

You can sort of see, if you squint, the glimmer of potential of "Venat loves your experiences and journey through the game so much that she makes the decision to affirm it, ensure it happens, and is celebrated" as something well-meaning, intended to be validating. But I think somewhere in attempting to tie all these things together with the existing plot, they (mostly) accidentally did a Social Darwinist Ideologue Mass Murder Apologism that encourages the sort of ugly Othering and thematic throwing under the bus of the Ancients - which all seems to have hit Yoshida a bit belatedly. Whoops.

I actually liked Zenos in EW and I wasn't a fan of his prior to that. The scene where he's telling the WoL he wants all their hatred directed towards him I thought, "Joke's on you, I don't hate you!"

My Actual Hot Take (tm) regarding Endwalker is that Zenos's arc is hands down the best-written, most affecting part of it, the most successful execution of its attempted themes, and anyone who hates him in Endwalker is Wrong. Objectively wrong, I say! I will broker no argument!

The pacing was terrible though. "We heard you loved the trolley and talos parts in ShB, here's EW's version of them except they don't lead to a climax!" :P I think about the time wasted on those parts as opposed to adding more to Garlemald or Elpis and I'm just annoyed.

Confession: I did, in fact, unironically love the trolley and Talos parts in ShB. <_<

That being said, I would trade Labyrinthos in a heartbeat for another zone for either Garlemald or Elpis, absolutely.

[Lyth]

Emet-Selch in Shadowbringers is probably the single most emotionally disconnected person in the game, with no care for anyone else's feelings of any type or any level. That's clearly learned behavior over twelve thousand years, as he's clearly not like that in Elpis (although he is still noticeably callous to the mental states of others), but he very clearly just... doesn't have any emotional connections to anyone. In fact, that's clearly not just an 'us' thing, he's just as rude to Varis. And his way of reaching out is basically just forcing people to listen to his own emotional turmoil, rather than actually trying to connect with anyone else's. He's worse than Zenos; at least Zenos actually tried to empathize with someone, even if he was patently terrible at it.

This isn't a knock against the character, that is clearly the intention; you don't write the line 'I don't consider you people, therefore it's not murder if I kill you' without knowing exactly how little that character cares about others.

Emet's broader sense of feeling disconnected from the people he lives with is definitely there as a function of being an imposter in another person's body (in 'Through His Eyes' he describes Varis as 'this body's grandson'). But there's also an emotional disconnect between Emet's reasoning and the humans that he's interacting with.

Yoshi-p made an interesting comment about how very different the Ancients were in their thinking from us. They're very logical, despite being emotional creatures like us, but they're not particularly empathetic. And I think a lot of that comes from the fact that they are, on some level, 'gods', and are used to having their way. They're very much in tune with their own emotions. Just not so much with those of the 'malformed twisted creatures' around them.

[Rulakir]

On the other hand, the imagery of her mercilessly punching Themis in the face while Answers swells in the background!

My hot take: I hate Answers, I have always hated that song. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but ugh. I also hate Flow. Meanwhile, I've had any version of the Garlean theme from the radio to the dungeon stuck in my head on infinite loop.

That being said, I don't actually think most of it came from a place of malice - I think they came from a place of generally good intent, just good intentions that were focused so much toward encouraging the player that the integrity of the in-game narrative ended up suffering for it.

Thematically, I found EW to be full of platitudes and I've lost count how many times I've sighed or rolled my eyes at the dialog. It also came across as preachy. I sincerely hope this is a one and done in terms of having self help messaging throughout an expansion. >_>

They took those signals and patterns and probably deduced, for better or worse, that people would also love Hydaelyn with a reveal that "she was doing everything for you, actually." The Sundering would become a touching, if tragic, gesture, if it was done For You. And it seemed to have worked for a lot of people, too.

I think it worked for the people they were able to convince that the Ancients were doomed no matter what (or who were never attached to the Ancients). Those of us who saw numerous alternate paths that weren't explored are the ones left frustrated. Also, as an unabashed fan of the Ancients, I can say this did not work for me at all. Venat is directly responsible for condemning my favorite characters, in some cases to fates worse than death, and I'm supposed to like or be thankful to her? I'm instantly reminded of any given stalker film where the person commits unspeakable atrocities and then tells the object of their affection, "Can't you see? I did this all for you!" Not to mention that in order to get the WoL you have to slice, dice, and julienne fry Azem, her protegee. It's seriously messed up.

Just to clarify, I get what you're saying and I agree that's probably how they viewed it, I'm just pointing out how it came across to me (and others). Part of the problem is I personally found Emet to be the most sympathetic and arguably tragic (although Elidibus is up there) figure in the story. The post-Elpis cutscene with Venat's pity walk through the ages did nothing for me. She made her bed, she had to die in it. My heart broke for her victims. As such, was there not one person on FFXIV's team that thought presenting her as a "good guy" might have some issues?

[KageTokage]

I felt mostly okay with how they had portrayed Venat up until the LL spelled it out rather plainly that in order for the future to happen she would've had to have allowed Emet-Selch and the others to escape the Sundering on purpose., which is where the time travel/causal loop completely fell apart to me and made me really, REALLY wish they had avoided it entirely, because even if it was by necessity, it's hard to view her in a positive light when she knowingly permitted the genocide of multiple worlds on top of all the suffering the Sundering caused.

Someone more astute could've grasped the implications sooner but I think was a bit too consumed by all the emotion they had injected into the associated scenes to really logic it out much at the time.

[Mortex]

Emet's broader sense of feeling disconnected from the people he lives with is definitely there as a function of being an imposter in another person's body (in 'Through His Eyes' he describes Varis as 'this body's grandson'). But there's also an emotional disconnect between Emet's reasoning and the humans that he's interacting with.

Yoshi-p made an interesting comment about how very different the Ancients were in their thinking from us. They're very logical, despite being emotional creatures like us, but they're not particularly empathetic. And I think a lot of that comes from the fact that they are, on some level, 'gods', and are used to having their way. They're very much in tune with their own emotions. Just not so much with those of the 'malformed twisted creatures' around them.

How did emet even had a kid in the first place like. He’s mentally so broken at that point that even a “reproduction” idea sounds not right in anyway. Also I can not even fathom emet saying you are all shadows and then still has action with a woman. I mean the man looked even in elpis like he loved his job more then anything.

[Mortex]

My hot take: I hate Answers, I have always hated that song. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but ugh. I also hate Flow. Meanwhile, I've had any version of the Garlean theme from the radio to the dungeon stuck in my head on infinite loop.



Thematically, I found EW to be full of platitudes and I've lost count how many times I've sighed or rolled my eyes at the dialog. It also came across as preachy. I sincerely hope this is a one and done in terms of having self help messaging throughout an expansion. >_>



I think it worked for the people they were able to convince that the Ancients were doomed no matter what (or who were never attached to the Ancients). Those of us who saw numerous alternate paths that weren't explored are the ones left frustrated. Also, as an unabashed fan of the Ancients, I can say this did not work for me at all. Venat is directly responsible for condemning my favorite characters, in some cases to fates worse than death, and I'm supposed to like or be thankful to her? I'm instantly reminded of any given stalker film where the person commits unspeakable atrocities and then tells the object of their affection, "Can't you see? I did this all for you!" Not to mention that in order to get the WoL you have to slice, dice, and julienne fry Azem, her protegee. It's seriously messed up.

Just to clarify, I get what you're saying and I agree that's probably how they viewed it, I'm just pointing out how it came across to me (and others). Part of the problem is I personally found Emet to be the most sympathetic and arguably tragic (although Elidibus is up there) figure in the story. The post-Elpis cutscene with Venat's pity walk through the ages did nothing for me. She made her bed, she had to die in it. My heart broke for her victims. As such, was there not one person on FFXIV's team that thought presenting her as a "good guy" might have some issues?

I do like emet also but man the only thing that made I’m interesting is his snark and superiority face but his back story is just over 1000 years survivors guilt……. like that isn’t something super interesting.

[Mortex]

I'll never not be baffled at how they handled him. The heart of Zodiark dealt with in 5 mins with no hope of reincarnation. Probably the character with the worst fate in the entire game if you take into account the thousands of years he toiled away. Didnt get any praise or thanks for helping us and didnt even get a spot on the end credits meanwhile for some reason Hermes of all people did.

I mean we kill lahabrea and his wife and his son is gonna swear revenge on us and does become the new lahabrea . Also he somehow gets mindblasted so he forgets us like Themis aka elidibus (he vaguely could remember us after dead like emet could) and that’s the reason he is so mega aggressive when ever he is on screen.

[Brinne]

Yoshi-p made an interesting comment about how very different the Ancients were in their thinking from us. They're very logical, despite being emotional creatures like us, but they're not particularly empathetic. And I think a lot of that comes from the fact that they are, on some level, 'gods', and are used to having their way. They're very much in tune with their own emotions. Just not so much with those of the 'malformed twisted creatures' around them.

I mean, I hate to tell you this, but the tendency to Otherize and dehumanize different groups of people to either justify violence against them or justify a lack of empathy or willingness to help them is absolutely no stranger to non-Ancient humans, whether in the real world or the Sundered one. Real people like Venat, ideologues who think in abstractions that means they don't really prioritize what harm their ideals may cause actual living individuals, absolutely exist. People like Emet, who are reflexively uncomfortable with cruelty but will resort to thin excuses as a coping mechanism to make it easier to go through with it anyway, in order to to advance their agenda, also exist. Anyway, how about Ul'dah and those "Beast Tribes," am I right?

[Lurina]

It's absolutely bizarre to me that people take that "ergo it will not be murder if I kill you" line from Emet literally. His whole deal in Shadowbringers is that he's having a crisis of conscience about the Rejoinings and snapping between insecure angry defensiveness and genuine attempts to open up and make himself vulnerable. He did not actually believe Sundered people were not people, he was just trying to force himself into that belief so that the conflict between his duty to his people and the monstrousness of his actions didn't destroy him with guilt. Y'shtola spells this out explicitly in Ultima Thule when she points out that the phantoms in Amaurot considering us children, as opposed to familiars, shows that he had become convinced of his victim's humanity.

[KizuyaKatogami]

How did emet even had a kid in the first place like. He’s mentally so broken at that point that even a “reproduction” idea sounds not right in anyway. Also I can not even fathom emet saying you are all shadows and then still has action with a woman. I mean the man looked even in elpis like he loved his job more then anything.

The short story hints he wasn’t quite broken at that point yet. It hints that his whole having a child there was his way of giving the sundered a chance. But when he saw just how fragile the sundered beings are after his son dies of illness(which is something that never existed in the ancient world, thanks Venat!) It basically cemented his resolve to strive forward towards the rejoinings.