Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Brinne]

I feel like I could agree with the idea of writer bias for the simple reason of the end of elpis cutscene, that scene makes no sense outside of it being metaphorical but then the question becomes, 'Why was it metaphorical' and the only reason I can think of is either budget or to make Venat look better by underselling the horror of what she was doing.

To irresponsibly speculate a bit, the feeling I get is that the main priority with Venat as a character was to impart a specific "vibe," or a feeling, about her, that was centered around inspirational player affirmation. (Venat is inspired by You, after all, and in many ways is doing all of this for You. People have noted it feels like there's sort of a fourth-wall-breaking feel to her questions about our journey.) To that end, yes, the walking montage had to be what it had to be - to prioritize "feeling," and also because I think that feeling of affirmation would be impossible to reconcile with a more literal, in-universe version of events.

People have discussed Venat's opposition in that scene being the "faceless Ancient strawman," and yes, that is an interesting choice - because the premise of the sequence would fall apart if we replace the NPC with any actual named and developed Ancient characters. Emet's argument would be coming from an entirely different place - the need to save their people from being trapped in Zodiark. Themis wanted peace between the factions and for everyone to be happy. Themis in particular, I think, is a problem - I'm not sure how you would depict the actual event of her fighting him without ruining the vibe they were going for, given established events. We know that Themis was so distressed by the internal strife among the Ancients that he emerged from Zodiark, leaving it coreless, to try to broker negotiations and peace, and therefore that Hydaelyn must have secured her victory while Zodiark was more vulnerable due to that.

It's a bit facetious and I'm mostly joking, but I honestly get the mental image of Themis stepping out of his cockpit shouting "Wait, stop! Let's talk things through! We shouldn't be fighting!" and Venat replying "PEACE WAS NEVER AN OPTION" and promptly Hydaelyn kicking him in the face.

It's funny - on a personal level, I feel like I've mostly made my peace with Endwalker. My main reservations had to do with the tone/framing around Venat and her conflict with the Ancients - I think she's an interesting and fun character in her own right, if allowed to just be what she is - and that was mollified a bit by Yoshida's concessions in the Q&A about her, though of course I really, really wish it was reflected in the actual text. The rest of the common complaints about Endwalker I generally am not on board with - I absolutely loved Zenos's role in it, I loved Garlemald, I even really like the bait-and-switch with the early Zodiark fight, and I can easily forgive things like pacing issues or the difficulty of writing the Scions as a group when they're not in the focus.

The one thing I find myself still yelling and waving my arms about, though, is JUSTICE FOR THEMIS. That poor kid. I don't really know what I'll do if we do, indeed, end up just kind of leaving him to his fate at the conclusion of Pandaemonium.

[jameseoakes]

What? There's nothing spiteful about Venat sundering people. That's not in her reasoning at all. She does it b/c she feels they can't overcome despair unless they're subjected to it. You can argue about whether she's right or not, but her reasoning is pretty clear and its not spiteful.

They've just been subjected to it, there civilisation has just been almost completely destroyed and as they don't respond how believes they should so she exterminates them. There seems to be little reason for this, there's no reason to think that the Ancients couldn't have dealt with the threat that Meition posed.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The one thing I find myself still yelling and waving my arms about, though, is JUSTICE FOR THEMIS. That poor kid. I don't really know what I'll do if we do, indeed, end up just kind of leaving him to his fate at the conclusion of Pandaemonium.

I'll never not be baffled at how they handled him. The heart of Zodiark dealt with in 5 mins with no hope of reincarnation. Probably the character with the worst fate in the entire game if you take into account the thousands of years he toiled away. Didnt get any praise or thanks for helping us and didnt even get a spot on the end credits meanwhile for some reason Hermes of all people did.

[Rannie]

How would they have portrayed him though? All of them that walked past everyone in the end credits were maskless with hood down. And so far we hadnt seen Elidibus' face yet (though I'm fully convinced it's Themis) but it would be kinda jarring to see only him with his hood and mask on during that scene.

Also from what it seemed liked it wasn't as if his whole soul was used up (unless it says so in a different language) but what I gathered was that most of his soul and aether had been slowly returning to the life stream via the crystal tower and that there wasn't much left of him when he sent us back to the past.

[Brinne]

I'll never not be baffled at how they handled him. The heart of Zodiark dealt with in 5 mins with no hope of reincarnation. Probably the character with the worst fate in the entire game if you take into account the thousands of years he toiled away. Didnt get any praise or thanks for helping us and didnt even get a spot on the end credits meanwhile for some reason Hermes of all people did.

Between G'raha saying the Crystal Tower was in the process of transferring his aether to the Sea, and Elidibus saying he's expecting to see his loved ones again in death, I'm running with the interpretation that he's not obliterated in the same sense Venat was. Because otherwise it's honestly too terrible for me to deal with and I will become a terrible caricature of myself, throwing comedic, incomprehensible tantrums at every turn while making dying rooster noises.

Themis isn't even my favorite character, really - I don't actually take much umbrage with him not being in the credits, because of him showing up in the stinger, and I actually think Hermes is a great character - but my heart really hurts for him in a unique way. In a sea of flawed people making varying levels of flawed decisions, I think he stands out as the one legitimately "pure-hearted" innocent figure in the whole mess who truly only had the best intentions and really did nothing wrong. The implication that his goodness, trusting nature, and honest desire for a peaceful resolution where everyone could be happy was taken advantage of for Hydaelyn to secure victory against Zodiark certainly makes me feel a kind of way!

[KageTokage]

I'm not sure why I didn't remember it sooner, but part of why the "truth" about the Sundering bugs me is because the conversation between Venat and her followers back in 5.2 was suggesting Zodiark was only a temporary solution to the Final Days, but it's never explained why they believed that as there's no indication the aetherial ward would've ever failed and they later suggested that the Ancient society would've faced death by stagnant perfection instead.

Had it been revealed that perhaps the act of reviving the sacrificed Ancients could've compromised the protection he had woven around Etheriys and that the replacement sacrifices wouldn't necessarily have been able to work as equal exchange, then the Sundering would've felt much more justified; being done out of fear and as an act of immediate preservation for the world while also opening up the possibility for more permanent salvation via Meteion's defeat, either intentionally if they decided to cling to the causal loop or as a convenient side effect had opted to avoid that instead.

It's really making me feel all the more that they never planned for the whole time travel/causal loop element even as recently as during Shadowbringers and that ended up being a change made later in response to the overwhelming popularity of Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus making them want to let the fans see more of them.

[Mortex]

Elpis in my eyes is one of the stronger areas story wise, but what I hate about it that the time travel/paradox effectively undermines the entire journey our character has up until this point. All decisions and situations we as the character and cast had we’re already set in stone from us telling venat what exactly happens. And venat willingly letting them happen, even as she knew what tragic events and situations come too pass. Like the entire premise of the final fantasy 14 story up until elpis is self consciousness and choosing your own path and destiny and after elpis you learn it’s a April fools joke and it was all a master plan from venat up until this point.

[Lyth]

Zodiark is fundamentally a darkness primal, and many of the rules that we've learnt previously about them apply (i.e. they all consume aether from Etheirys). This was a major point in the Alexander storyline as well, in that Alexander recognized that the continued use of its abilities would rapidly drain the planet dry of aether. That's probably why Zodiark was likewise seen as a 'temporary solution', unless you were able to find more sources of aether elsewhere (spacetravel to harvest other planets?)

Ah yes, Emet-Selch, well known for his...emotional disconnect?

There is an emotional disconnect between Emet and the Scions in that scene in the Ocular (Shadowbringers Lv. 77: 'Return to Eulmore'). As the word itself suggests, the alluded to 'disconnect' involves an interaction between two entities (i.e. Emet + Scions). That scene really drives home the differences in thinking between Amaurotian society and ours, and why the application of logic alone without empathy is a dangerous thing.

[Cleretic]

Emet-Selch in Shadowbringers is probably the single most emotionally disconnected person in the game, with no care for anyone else's feelings of any type or any level. That's clearly learned behavior over twelve thousand years, as he's clearly not like that in Elpis (although he is still noticeably callous to the mental states of others), but he very clearly just... doesn't have any emotional connections to anyone. In fact, that's clearly not just an 'us' thing, he's just as rude to Varis. And his way of reaching out is basically just forcing people to listen to his own emotional turmoil, rather than actually trying to connect with anyone else's. He's worse than Zenos; at least Zenos actually tried to empathize with someone, even if he was patently terrible at it.

This isn't a knock against the character, that is clearly the intention; you don't write the line 'I don't consider you people, therefore it's not murder if I kill you' without knowing exactly how little that character cares about others.

[Rulakir]

Themis in particular, I think, is a problem - I'm not sure how you would depict the actual event of her fighting him without ruining the vibe they were going for, given established events.

I've no doubt this was intentional along with not showing an accurate depiction of events and instead getting an abridged version from Venat's biased POV. EW did its best to gaslight the player into loving her, a faithful retelling of what happened would have painted her as an unforgivable monster and doubtful anyone would have pity or fondness for her after that. I also wonder if that's why Elidibus got the shaft because his version of events would have also clashed with their vision for Venat.

I feel like I've mostly made my peace with Endwalker.

I'm not quite there yet. I'm mostly over my initial anger, now it's mourning the story we never got because for some reason the powers that be decided they didn't want to bother with it anymore. I'm not sure a couple of short stories on the Lodestone are going to fix that either. I still feel like we only saw Venat's side. Elidibus was memory impaired in ShB and then conveniently left out in EW except for time travel fuel and the raid storyline that has nothing to do with the Final Days. The Ascians were also lacking crucial information the whole time. There really wasn't a Zodiark in the finale, it was all the Hydaelyn show with a gundam suit battle with Fandaniel at level 83.

I did like Garlemald, but it needed more focus. Much like the Ancients, I feel like they didn't get as much attention as they needed but at least in their case it can be addressed in the future whereas it seems we're just done with the fundamental lore of the world and existence as we know it. :P I actually liked Zenos in EW and I wasn't a fan of his prior to that. The scene where he's telling the WoL he wants all their hatred directed towards him I thought, "Joke's on you, I don't hate you!"

The pacing was terrible though. "We heard you loved the trolley and talos parts in ShB, here's EW's version of them except they don't lead to a climax!" :P I think about the time wasted on those parts as opposed to adding more to Garlemald or Elpis and I'm just annoyed.

It doesn't feel like she was meant to be a malevolent figure but then the sundering seems to have written in such a way there there is no reason for it other that an act of spite by her towards the people of Etheryis as she just condemns to thousands of years of suffering and most likely the fate of the worlds Meition visits where the populations destroyed there own worlds

It's funny how little it takes to turn Venat into a sinister villain. Just adding that she had a deep seated hatred of Azem (or Emet) is enough then change the post-Elpis dialog to, "I'll destroy you, everything you love, and then manipulate your reincarnation into killing your best friend who I purposely left unsundered and made your enemy." :P