Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Theodric]

A lot of us will miss you :c I think we’ll be seeing less from more people now considering how the story went and left many unsatisfied. Wish you the best and stay safe!

Yeah. I'd like to echo this. As someone who primarily played for the story I'm now getting my storytelling fix elsewhere from games with more, uh, game. If it wasn't for my house and my eagerness to embrace having my character become an adventurer again, I'd be inclined to take a lengthy break from FFXIV.

I hope FFXIV can reverse its current course. Before I played FFXIV, I played WoW and many of the red flags in terms of retcons and awkward/hasty resolutions to major plot points are unfortunately happening here as well. I don't think the development team here has quite the same level of callous disregard for the story, though I do think there's some important feedback raised here and within other threads that needs to be taken into account moving forward.

At the end of the day, the story is the main thing that FFXIV has going for it since it chose that as its primary focus and the bulk of content is always tied to the MSQ's.

[Rulakir]

It's the focus on FFXIV becoming a solo friendly MMO that's got my attention, it's something I've wanted for years. Prior to that, I was considering if I wanted to continue with the game since EW killed my desire to play for several weeks. I have zero confidence in the story going forward and the Q&A took the wind out of my sails when it comes to discussing lore. I wish I could be excited about returning to an adventurer, but I'm concerned between the finale and no major plot lures we're going to go back to an ARR slow burn (I hated ARR). I guess I'll do what I always do, make alts and hope things improve. :P

[Lauront]

Yeah, it was all about "controlled opposition".

I've noticed some posters appear to struggle to distinguish the characters pre-sundering from what they are 12k years later...

[Cleretic]

Yeah, it was all about "controlled opposition".

I've noticed some posters appear to struggle to distinguish the characters pre-sundering from what they are 12k years later...

Okay, so there's something that gives a bit more detail on this one, and it shows better the truth of what happened. From the second Emet-Selch Tales from the Shadows (the 'Azem Vs The Volcano' one):

This was soon after Zodiark became the will of the star, and our Final Days were averted. The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. All were at our wits' end.

At once, we saw it, shimmering. It poured out of Zodiark's breast, and resolved into the shape of a man. As he looked us over─mouths agape, no doubt─he gave what passed for an earnest smile.

"Fear...not... You will make...the right choice. And I will see it through."

So this gives us a timeframe; this is specifically after the second sacrifice, but before the Convocation were locked in on the third. If we want to put together an actual chronology, we know that the Anamnesis meeting was after this, because at that point the Convocation were certain and unyielding. But, now take into account his line after becoming what we now know is a primal, as well as the heart of Zodiark: "You will make the right choice, and I will see it through."

He's not extending impartiality, he's extending certainty. The assurance that the choice they make will be the right one--and as Zodiark's heart, there was only ever one road he was going to go down. He 'reconciled' by leading people down one specific road--and you can tell from the Anamnesis meeting, the opposing side wasn't quelled, they were shut out.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Okay, so there's something that gives a bit more detail on this one, and it shows better the truth of what happened. From the second Emet-Selch Tales from the Shadows (the 'Azem Vs The Volcano' one):



So this gives us a timeframe; this is specifically after the second sacrifice, but before the Convocation were locked in on the third. If we want to put together an actual chronology, we know that the Anamnesis meeting was after this, because at that point the Convocation were certain and unyielding. But, now take into account his line after becoming what we now know is a primal, as well as the heart of Zodiark: "You will make the right choice, and I will see it through."

He's not extending impartiality, he's extending certainty. The assurance that the choice they make will be the right one--and as Zodiark's heart, there was only ever one road he was going to go down. He 'reconciled' by leading people down one specific road--and you can tell from the Anamnesis meeting, the opposing side wasn't quelled, they were shut out.

d
I dont think we can just ignore what comes from his mouth though, and i'd say its a bit of a reach to go that far.Especially when the timeline is pretty muddles as we never got a clear concrete telling of events. I dont think we even now if he was able to mediate with Venat's group. She may have sundered the world before he could even approach them.

[Cleretic]

d
I dont think we can just ignore what comes from his mouth though, and i'd say its a bit of a reach to go that far.Especially when the timeline is pretty muddles as we never got a clear concrete telling of events. I dont think we even now if he was able to mediate with Venat's group. She may have sundered the world before he could even approach them.

Venat's crew were coming to them and getting shut out, so we can't say that he just hadn't gotten around to it; they actually reported going to the Convocation and their words reaching deaf ears. So whatever his definition of reconciliation was, it was through ignoring or outright dismissing the actual opposition.

Given that 'most' of the planet wanted the third sacrifice, and we still don't really understand how Primal-Elidibus even happened, I suspect one of two things.

A: Elidibus came down of his own volition (as he believes), and as Zodiark's heart, immediately opted for the Zodiarkian option. 'You will make the right choice' because he was inherently biased towards the option that gave Zodiark more sacrifices, and pushed for that.

B: Elidibus came down via collective unconscious wish. Given that the majority of the planet supported the third sacrifice, this meant that their summoned primal did too. 'You will make the right choice' because he was the manifestation of majority will, and so already decided.

In either case, while he might have called what he did 'reconciliation' to himself, it clearly was not an actual communion between the dissenting groups.

Given this is Elidibus we're talking about, it's possible that we'll get a better idea of his general outlook over Pandaemonium. But personally, I don't think that post-Zodiark, he ever could've been impartial; we know that he was motivated by the needs of his own continual existence (hence how he got into his whole 'weaponizing heroism' thing), so how could he have ever be expected to fairly balance 'feed Zodiark vs. don't feed Zodiark'?

[Lauront]

Okay, so there's something that gives a bit more detail on this one, and it shows better the truth of what happened. From the second Emet-Selch Tales from the Shadows (the 'Azem Vs The Volcano' one):



So this gives us a timeframe; this is specifically after the second sacrifice, but before the Convocation were locked in on the third. If we want to put together an actual chronology, we know that the Anamnesis meeting was after this, because at that point the Convocation were certain and unyielding. But, now take into account his line after becoming what we now know is a primal, as well as the heart of Zodiark: "You will make the right choice, and I will see it through."

He's not extending impartiality, he's extending certainty. The assurance that the choice they make will be the right one--and as Zodiark's heart, there was only ever one road he was going to go down. He 'reconciled' by leading people down one specific road--and you can tell from the Anamnesis meeting, the opposing side wasn't quelled, they were shut out.

Yes, I am well aware of these sources, seeing as I have referenced them multiple times here. I'm afraid you're simply filling in gaps at this point with your own speculation, which is fine; but it's all it is. I could just as easily paint the picture that Elidibus's return 1) cemented the idea that their plan is feasible and 2) conveyed to the surviving ancients that those within him were in a limbo and thus sufficed to quash any doubts on the feasibility of that plan or about any concerns as to whether those inside Zodiark would feel wronged by the Convocation enacting this plan. His role as Emissary is there to reconcile conflicting opinions. The bolded is simply spin. Zodiark had no inherent interest in the affair because the primal lacks any will outside of Elidibus and this is an exchange of life for life, so the primal gains nothing on net. So at best Elidibus would be voicing the discontent of the thoughts of the souls inside the primal.

With that, compared to a faction exhorting their people to embrace suffering, without offering any concrete rationale for it that we can see, when their society had managed to curtail many of the things causing it, it is easy to see why her faction would be "shut out" and their concerns dismissed. There is no dispute from her faction that their goal was to steer the star on the best possible future - that comes from her own mouth.

Perhaps now you will appreciate why Kizuya wanted to see that scene play out.

It's an interesting thought, but I think that is making a lot of assumptions for what is a very vaguely described event in the novella. Here Emet-selch is speaking of the people, not simply the Convocation, and as Elidibus says in his death, this division over the star's fate was not 'fleeting.' That it came after the second sacrifice (because that is when the disagreement began to appear) was already quite apparent, and doesn't narrow things down as much as one might think. It's also important to bear in mind that in the Anamnesis scene, an Ancient mentions themselves singularly being ignored by the Convocation. Nothing is mentioned of a response in a group context and we get nothing of how the Convocation might have reacted in a post-Hydaelyn scenario. Heck, since Emet-selch is referring more broadly to the people, that novella scene could have been after Hydaelyn's summoning, for all we know. According to Emet-selch the two fought for a long time so really anything's possible.

As for the separation from Zodiark itself, I think it is pretty safe to assume that it was of Elidibus's own volition. Even if it were a summoning made through some unconscious wish, akin to Louisoix as the Phoenix, would it not stand to reason those people would have simply conjured a primal out of thin air, from their prayers? It makes little sense to me that such wishes would carve out the heart of Zodiark.

There are just too many missing pieces to come to a definite conclusion on any of it, but in response to supposition I will supply my own. I think Elidibus did very much have it within his capability to mediate impartially. Above all else, above his role as Zodiark's heart, his role was one of reconciliation, that was his duty, and it is what he finally remembers as he dies. If Elidibus were truly a slave to Zodiark, I don't believe he would have left him masterless and vulnerable, to a point where Hydaelyn could be a match for him. In his death we learn that what Elidibus truly valued was the smiling faces of those he loved, (which is more directly referred to in his JP final words) and I think reconciliation in a truer sense than shutting out naysayers would be what he'd have pursued. Where you see "You will make the right choice" as "You will make my choice," I see it as a reassuring "You will find the right choice."

Elidibus does not even compel Fandaniel's obedience. He simply tries to convince him through argument. Were he to desire the compulsion of obedience, why even leave the primal? I agree with your interpretation of it, anyway. I suspect it is why their supporters' numbers eventually dwindled to just a few. My belief is Elidibus helped make the argument by way of demonstration - and that's why it would've been nice to see this stuff play out, rather than some poor strawman ancients drawing the supreme deity's ire.

[Cleretic]

Perhaps now you will appreciate why Kizuya wanted to see that scene play out.

I actually expect that Kizuya wants to see the scene play out for much the reason that I, a couple posts above yours, outlined why Elidibus can never provide an unbiased source: because even if he was at one point an unbiased source on a personal level (which I'm not convinced of, but will concede that it's plausible, even if it's not important), narratively he is not, because we know where he ends up going. Elidibus' perspective therefore cannot be read as in any way neutral, because we know the context isn't a completely neutral account of facts: it's 'how Elidibus ultimately decided to go for Plan Zodiark'.

I think the reason Kizuna decided that the 'unbiased account' they wanted was specifically from Elidibus was because of exactly that. Their view on this is pretty blatantly worn in their signature, they think Hydaelyn's outlook is terrible and cruel. They chose Elidibus as their 'unbiased' person because he would give exactly the statement they want to hear: 'from my neutral perspective, Zodiark Is Right'.

[Absimiliard]

Elidibus is probably one of the most tragic characters in the entire game. I'm sure plenty will disagree with this assessment since we're not given anywhere near as much time with him as we are the likes of Emet-Selch, but... think about it. A young Elidibus, filled with love for his people, becomes Zodiark's heart. This same young man that willingly gave himself for the sake of his people must then watch the tattered remnants of their civilization tear itself apart, coming dangerously close to completely invalidating all the sacrifices they'd made up until then. So he separates -- or something wearing his face does, at least. The boy that had been Elidibus ceased to be when Zodiark was created, but his earnest desire to see his people through to a better tomorrow, no matter the cost, survived the end of his soul. For 12,000 years he labored, separated from Zodiark, to try and bring the promised salvation to his people. For 12,000 years he watched Emet-Selch succumb to despair, Lahabrea go mad (or madder, as the case may have been) as a result of using himself up, and the fragments of those he'd once known and loved be born, live, and die over and over again. Then, when he is the only hope left for his people, he takes on the form of his best friend--the WoL's heroic past self--and marches into a battle he knows he can't win. He even regains the lion's share of his lost memories mere moments before being sealed away for (what both he and we) at the time believed would be functionally forever.

Dude goes right ahead and gives up any chance he might've still had at a future existence, again for the sake of his star and his people, when the WoL comes to the Crystal Tower again prior to Endwalker's climax. He, without hesitation, gives up the only thing he still had -- his very being -- for this purpose. Would he really have made this sacrifice after any chance of restoring his people was lost if he were truly so one-sided in his thought processes? With Zodiark dead and any hope of bringing them back slain with him, he could've simply abandoned Etheirys to its fate. Instead he chose to see his people's desire to save Etheirys through anyway.

[Skyborne]

Elidibus

I want to believe what was brought up some pages back about part of him being drawn back to the Lifestream and that part of him we spoke to in the Tower being the bit of essence still left in there. No Copingways big enough for me. He'd be on the First with Gaia and some of the Unsundered that were stuck in Zodiark's missing wang in that shard of the moon, at least.