What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

I didn't shed any tears after presuming it was going to be sob fest judging from the many reviewers who had cried buckets and needed time to 'process'....i must have a cold heart or something as i never got the feels and didn't need a day or two to 'process' anything.

I'm a hair trigger crier and the only parts that got me sobbing were the Emet & Hythlodaeus scenes. There were a couple of other misty-eyed moments, but nothing else hit as hard. The only thing I needed to process was why the same person responsible for ShB and the alternate timeline decided to go with an awful time loop in EW where we didn't get to save anyone.

So ultimately, Zenos helps save the world and also gets the final say in what your character is. Naturally, we can't turn down the prospect of a duel, lest we set him back to his pre-Alisaie mentality or just let him walk away Scott-free for all he's done. But we don't even get the option to tell him off or punish him in some way beyond making him slightly disappointed that he lost again and somewhat reflective on the fact that he never really cared about people because Varis was a bad father. He more or less gets what he wants again and gets to pass away (maybe) on his terms.

This was unfortunately consistent throughout EW. I guess the writers/devs had a vision for the WoL and their journey that they wanted the player to have too, so you weren't allowed to act in any way outside of that vision and your character was manipulated through animation and expression to further force that perspective.

[AnnRam]

EW story was completely rushed and in my opinion it could easily be worst than Stormblood.

I honestly pretend that the story ended in Shadowbringers.

[Kozh]

I've been listening to Flow (venat's theme) OST on YouTube lately and I've come across one video where it also contains several venat's cutscenes. They make me realize how privilege venat is and she didn't share one bit to her fellow Ancients.

She's the only one who: 1) know about Meteion's existence and importance of dynamis, 2) listen to Meteion's report of doomed worlds and one which parallel to the Ancients, and 3) listen to WoL's adventure story, knew about the sundered life and the beauty of it, how mortality and suffering is "key" to defeat meteion (as much as I disagree, but this isn't the point for now).

[KizuyaKatogami]

Really felt like they were building up Varis into someone we would work with (begrudgingly or no) especially with Regula's last words in mind... it never happened. He was actually pretty sympathetic in Stormblood -- childhood best friend and one of the few people he trusted dead, his wife/Zenos' mother dead, and stuck between two Ascians trying to hold out against them while they taunted him (and reminded him of how little control he had). He truly seemed to care about his people and the Empire's ideals and knew about Amaurot, though how much he did or how he even knew was up in the air. But instead at the very end he just does a funny sinister meme face and releases the gas that he was so against using to the point where Elidibus was getting fed up and visibly annoyed. Really done dirty.

Though if you think about it, he kind of got what he wanted, for mankind to decide their own fate, thanks to us. He's probably sharing a beer in the Lifestream with Ilberd right now. Speaking of which, why'd we have to fight that guy (aside from fanservice memberberries)? Should've just told him Ala Mhigo was free now.

Its kind of sad now that we have the finished expansion, that Varis died to hype up Zenos but zenos did like…nothing substantial at all. It was quite literally just Stormblood all over again where he’s obsessing over a fight. Varis would have been far more interesting but idk…at this point it seems like the devs have some kind of hatred for anything Garlemald. The way Gabranth got completely shafted,Regula,Varis. Destroyed the whole place off screen etc.

[DevonEllwood]

I didn't watch the live letter so I'm only getting pieces second-hand. From what I gathered Yoshida was confused or surprised that people found Venat's motives questionable at the least. I'm going to break this down a bit and please tell me if I get something wrong.

Person A wanted to change humanity and decided their abilities and memories be removed. Upon doing this multiple other worlds were created and mankind and plenty of other life lived in these worlds (worlds 2-14). Person A purposefully left Person B, as well as a couple others, with their powers and memories. Person A knew that that leaving Person B (with memories and powers) would cause deaths of of several select worlds. Person A could not intervene because person C was needed to be at their best and thus required the powers from [their shard selves] these worlds. Person A did not tell their allies that all this was going to happen. This was in order to solve the Big Problem that only person A knew about because they did not tell anyone. This information came to Person A before the Big Problem started.

Person B didn't know why Person A was doing what they were doing. Person B knew about the Big Problem initially but had their memory wiped. Person B's group summoned a protector that required their people to be willingly sacrificed to postpone the Big Problem. After this, person A did the thing to remove the memories and powers of Person B's group (but not Person B themselves) and create the multiple words that Person A knew would have to die for Person C to be ready to tackle the Big Problem.

Person C did not have a guarantee to fix the Big Problem. There was another plan, one that did not fix the Big Problem and was also another gamble.

I'm trying to look at this from an outside perspective and it seems to be the best solution would be for Person A to give the information they know to Person B's group so multiple worlds would not have to be made just to die because of a gamble on Person C. I guess there's the time travel that wasn't mentioned involved, but Person C got the information they needed in order to try to save world 1, their own world. Maybe the finer details matter, I don't know, but from looking at it, both person A and B look bad.

Also if we add the details and Brinne's explanation for Venat's actions
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5854982

You either get a Venat that has the mentality of a child, or a complete psychopath. She literally remolded the world and mankind into something that would be more interesting to her and to potentially solve a problem that she withheld information on. Maybe after that 12,000 years she finally realized what she did was wrong and that's why she apologizes. The scions didn't care though because it benefited them in the end. For someone to see something as "good" because it benefits them at the expense of others is kind of gross. Y'shtola not saying anything was baffling. Back in ARR with one of the scenes before Titan, Y'shtola confronted the Admiral about breaking a peace treaty with the kobolds and taking their land. The admiral said yeah it was wrong, but I don't care, I'm here to help my own people at the expense of others. I know this is not on the same level as killing multiple worlds, but Y'shtola still thought there was a better solution.

Brinne's Venat explanation is the only one I can find that makes sense of the complete 180 that she pulled. It makes sense for Hydaelyn to be designed the way she was because when would have seen herself as a savior and a mother to these new creations. She thought she was helping humanity with them being the best they could be. She is the worst parts of Hermes and Hades combined. I wanted to like Hydaelyn, but this description makes sense and is the most depressing thing about the story, not the existential crisis bs.

Zodiark's design fits him, it's very strong with aspects of the sea (octopus!) air, and land. I guess the statue was a prototype? Why is it so different?

Also out of curiosity, how many more worlds did Meteion potentially bring the end of between us in Elpis and her own death? Also, she did say they all made it to their destinations safely, but did they all survive on the planets? One mentioned a planet with the bones resembling "men", was she only looking for humanoid life? Were there any planets that ignored her or even killed her? I'm assuming they would not have gotten into the report.

And why did we need a giant spaceship the size of an ark to get everyone from the planet to the moon, just for it to not be capable of doing that, instead of a teleporter? The bunnies would have made one side on the moon, made cute little bunny spaceships to get to the plant and make the other half with technology that already exists. They were already working on aetherite travel that didn't need attunement. Why not pour all your efforts into that instead of a giant spaceship to hold all of humanity except the garleans because there was going to be no way they would have been allowed on.

Are we just going to drop Dynamis as a concept from here on out since it's part of the "old story"? I think it's stupid but I'd rather it get expanded on instead of dropped like all these other plot threads. How many of these plot threads are going to be dropped? Why did Yoshida not think people looked into the story that much when we have lore books? Ethys and Anonymoos? Is he that out of touch with the people who play the game for the story?

I think that's all my burning questions so far. I might have more next week!

[Lauront]

Yeah, I was disappointed that Varis just kinda died off. I thought he was a bit ridiculous in a few points, but I definitely was curious if we'd ever manage to turn around his viewpoint, especially after the reveal he was an unwilling participant in the Ascians' schemes.

Instead, he just dies and never really stops being a dick. I guess he's like Quintus in that regard, but it's still a bit disappointing.

It's easy to paint him in such a way but I don't think either he or Varis were just being that way for the sake of it - Garlemald's entire credo stemmed from a history of other nations trying to trample over it, so it built up an ideology valuing strength and self-reliance and harboured deep-seated distrust of its neighbours and any "peace" offers. Completely understandable, IMO, whether one agrees with their methods or not. I think there's even some parallels with the Ascians in the injustices it suffered and the harsh methods it resorted to in order to remedy them. Symbolically, Quintus's death was similar to the "out with the lingering obstacles" stuff we saw in Ultima Thule, which rubbed me the wrong way in a sense, and I hope we're not just going to have more rather empty nonsense that they need to give up their hope to reclaim Locus Amoenus and "move on", even if it need not end up with those who took up residence thereafter in shackles.

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

This isn't really a complaint, but since we're poking at the story I had a thought I wanted to share: do you think the Ascians ever just found it awkward that The Watcher was likely always observing their evil plans? Like, Elidibus goes to meet Ardbert on the Moon and there's just this 11 foot tall guy in the background most likely watching them for any signs of shenanigans?

It's easy to paint him in such a way but I don't think either he or Varis were just being that way for the sake of it - Garlemald's entire credo stemmed from a history of other nations trying to trample over it, so it built up an ideology valuing strength and self-reliance and harboured deep-seated distrust of its neighbours and any "peace" offers. Completely understandable, IMO, whether one agrees with their methods or not. I think there's even some parallels with the Ascians in the injustices it suffered and the harsh methods it resorted to in order to remedy them. Symbolically, Quintus's death was similar to the "out with the lingering obstacles" stuff we saw in Ultima Thule, which rubbed me the wrong way in a sense, and I hope we're not just going to have more rather empty nonsense that they need to give up their hope to reclaim Locus Amoenus and "move on", even if it need not end up with those who took up residence thereafter in shackles.

I will admit that I didn't really care for how two of the three big "deal with the depression of these dead races" moments in Ultima Thule were basically just the Scions going "Eh, who cares?", with only G'raha displaying an alternative point of view that was designed to help the person he was talking to.

For that matter, they had the same reaction to Thancred seemingly being killed by Meteion, which was also jarring.

[Rulakir]

The scions didn't care though because it benefited them in the end. For someone to see something as "good" because it benefits them at the expense of others is kind of gross.

Yep. I believe the only morally correct choice was to prevent the sundering from happening, but then some argued I was killing the billions of people who existed as a result of it. People who didn't exist yet. People who would exist as a result of not only the death of the Ancient civilization, but 7 rejoinings. It'd ultimately end up saving more lives than it took unless you believe preventing a future is killing people.

The WoL seemingly doesn't care about sacrificing the Ancient world if it means saving theirs and their future friends. Ardbert didn't care about trashing the Source if it meant it'd save the First (while he was misled into believing that was a possibility, the point still stands). This seems to be par for the course for our Azem. I don't know what the team has in mind that Azem was doing during the Final Days, but I feel the need to reiterate that being on board with Venat's plan would be the antithesis of what we've seen from their reincarnations.

Are we just going to drop Dynamis as a concept from here on out since it's part of the "old story"? I think it's stupid but I'd rather it get expanded on instead of dropped like all these other plot threads. How many of these plot threads are going to be dropped? Why did Yoshida not think people looked into the story that much when we have lore books? Ethys and Anonymoos? Is he that out of touch with the people who play the game for the story?

I miss Ethys, I was looking forward to his commentary. I honestly hope we do drop dynamis. Personally, I was hoping over time the WoL would eventually become whole, starting with merging with their voidsent shard from the 13th. Dynamis throws a wrench into everything implying that being whole again would be a bad thing because we couldn't interact with it as easily anymore.

do you think the Ascians ever just found it awkward that The Watcher was likely always observing their evil plans? Like, Elidibus goes to meet Ardbert on the Moon and there's just this 11 foot tall guy in the background most likely watching them for any signs of shenanigans?

A lot of the moon stuff didn't make sense to me. There's a barrier preventing it from being hit with an aether blast, but someone can just teleport up there any time and slice through Zodiark's bindings with a scythe completely unimpeded? Really? Given that Venat knew how these events played out you'd think she'd have better than half-assed protections. Hell, even the unsundered Ascians should've had some kind of failsafe in place if a being of Zodiark's power were that vulnerable to being released and controlled.

[KageTokage]

A lot of the moon stuff didn't make sense to me. There's a barrier preventing it from being hit with an aether blast, but someone can just teleport up there any time and slice through Zodiark's bindings with a scythe completely unimpeded? Really? Given that Venat knew how these events played out you'd think she'd have better than half-assed protections. Hell, even the unsundered Ascians should've had some kind of failsafe in place if a being of Zodiark's power were that vulnerable to being released and controlled.

I'm going to assume they never accounted for some loony creating an elaborate aether cannon that was siphoning power from across the entire world to blast the barrier with.

The wards were probably nigh-impregnable vs. more conventional methods prior to that assault.

[Lauront]

Yep. I believe the only morally correct choice was to prevent the sundering from happening, but then some argued I was killing the billions of people who existed as a result of it. People who didn't exist yet. People who would exist as a result of not only the death of the Ancient civilization, but 7 rejoinings. It'd ultimately end up saving more lives than it took unless you believe preventing a future is killing people.
Indeed, and to add to this, 1) it didn't stop the Ironworks and 2) we know now that it would just cause an AU to form.

The WoL seemingly doesn't care about sacrificing the Ancient world if it means saving theirs and their future friends. Ardbert didn't care about trashing the Source if it meant it'd save the First (while he was misled into believing that was a possibility, the point still stands). This seems to be par for the course for our Azem. I don't know what the team has in mind that Azem was doing during the Final Days, but I feel the need to reiterate that being on board with Venat's plan would be the antithesis of what we've seen from their reincarnations.

And you have the Ironworks making a similar decision - of course, an AU formed out of it, but they didn't know that would be the case when they made that decision (and this fact is still not known to the main cast.)

I miss Ethys, I was looking forward to his commentary. I honestly hope we do drop dynamis. Personally, I was hoping over time the WoL would eventually become whole, starting with merging with their voidsent shard from the 13th. Dynamis throws a wrench into everything implying that being whole again would be a bad thing because we couldn't interact with it as easily anymore.

There's nothing about dynamis that fundamentally interests me - it's just an alternative fuel source, but influenced by emotions (an angle which itself I care little for), and which is drowned out by aether, but which can be manipulated through workarounds. I'd rather rejoin with my characters' other shards, because there isn't anything dynamis adds to for me, since the powers my character uses already have aetheric explanations and again... it's just fuel, and its main point of interest is it can be harnessed for exploration in regions of space where it is more abundant. Although I don't think there's a good reason to do it, I can see dynamis being used to explain what is used as a power source in the Void... even though the stuff we learnt about a flood of light on the First renders this more or less superfluous. Any explanations that the Void lacks aether, can very easily be revised due to the fact that 1) the Source misunderstood the functioning of dark aether at the time (thought it was umbral in nature) and 2) is therefore potentially using measurement instruments not up to the task of measuring dark aether. Also worth noting that we initially were told such a flood of light would result in a nothingness, but instead it results in aether in a highly umbral state.