What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

Except we didn't, not really. The game still presents her as a protagonist and Yoshi-P said they want to "communicate she's not a bad guy". The writers/devs themselves don't view her as villain and the game doesn't portray her as one either.

I think Yoshi-P unintentionally performed something of an 'own goal' on that front by encouraging players to compare her to Emet-Selch.

He was very much framed as an antagonist but the word 'villain' was used to describe him at various points and even during some of the interviews released during Shadowbringers.

Ultimately he was pushed as justified or unforgivable based on the personal opinion of any given individual player. On the basis of judging him for the events he is responsible for during the story.

Which is another reason why this all makes very little sense to me. Now that we know that Venat is responsible for the Sundering as an intentional act and also indirectly responsible for everything that the Ascians did and suffered through...then I remain baffled as to why there's an insistence that she couldn't possibly be a villain.

She very much is one from the perspective of the majority of the Ancients and I think it's time that more writers realised that it is ultimately the players themselves who have the ultimate say on how they feel about any given character.

I was perfectly okay with the Meteion twist because I had long suspected that a "perfect" race like the Ancients most likely engineered their own demise somehow and I felt more gratified then anything else by the time the whole truth of things came to light.

...and yet how many times would the Sundered have realistically engineered their own demise had they not conveniently had every possible plot device in their favour and minimal meaningful stakes at every turn? I'm reluctant to blame the Ancients as a whole for the actions of subversive ideologues and somehow I doubt the same logic would ever be applied elsewhere in the story. Should the Domans be wiped out because of what Yotsuyu did? Should the Domans be wiped out because of what they did to Yotsuyu in order to make her that way? I don't think so - and I don't think the Ancients deserved to be wiped out either.

I'm also not oblivious to the unfortunate fact that many ideologues in the real world giggle and twitch at the thought of claiming that someone is 'perfect', 'wealthy' or 'stuck up' even if that isn't even the case only to fantasise about those individuals or groups losing every last thing that they care about, including their very lives and that of their loved ones.

There's a much more dangerous variant, however - those that hide their intentions behind tears and the famous words of 'there was no other option'. Which is pretty much Venat to a large degree.

[KageTokage]

...and yet how many times would the Sundered have realistically engineered their own demise had they not conveniently had every possible plot device in their favour and minimal meaningful stakes at every turn? I'm reluctant to blame the Ancients as a whole for the actions of subversive ideologues and somehow I doubt the same logic would ever be applied elsewhere in the story. Should the Domans be wiped out because of what Yotsuyu did? Should the Domans be wiped out because of what they did to Yotsuyu in order to make her that way? I don't think so - and I don't think the Ancients deserved to be wiped out either.

I'm also not oblivious to the unfortunate fact that many ideologues in the real world giggle and twitch at the thought of claiming that someone is 'perfect', 'wealthy' or 'stuck up' even if that isn't even the case only to fantasise about those individuals or groups losing every last thing that they care about, including their very lives and that of their loved ones.

There's a much more dangerous variant, however - those that hide their intentions behind tears and the famous words of 'there was no other option'. Which is pretty much Venat to a large degree.

That's...not really what I was getting at at all.

I simply reasoned that a race that was largely devoid of strife and conflict was more likely to have brought calamity to itself through something like a search for knowledge/answers and/or tampering with forces they didn't have a complete understanding of; both of which were fulfilled with Hermes' creating the Meteia to seek out the peoples of other stars.

[Theodric]

That's...not really what I was getting at at all.

I simply reasoned that a race that was largely devoid of strife and conflict was more likely to have brought calamity to itself through something like a search for knowledge/answers and/or tampering with forces they didn't have a complete understanding of; both of which were fulfilled with Hermes' creating the Meteia to seek out the peoples of other stars.

Fair enough. It was the use of the word 'gratified' that led me to read it that way.

Still, I wouldn't really consider Hermes or Venat to be representative of the Ancients as a whole when they deliberately ignored the methods employed to mitigate dangerous actions and illegal concepts. The 'perfection' of the Ancient world is also a lot more agreeable to many, I suspect, compared to what the Sundered world brings to the table.

Maybe it'd sit better with me if the game didn't turn the pursuit of betterment into a wacky caricature in the same breath as constantly glorifying flaws and differences. How unfortunate that none of the heavy handed worlds that Meteion encountered happened to fall into ruin due to having far too many competing special groups vying for power and control.

I kept waiting for the penny to drop and for someone to express disbelief in response to Venat's reason for wiping out her own people but that moment never came.

[Atelier-Bagur]

...and yet how many times would the Sundered have realistically engineered their own demise had they not conveniently had every possible plot device in their favour and minimal meaningful stakes at every turn? I'm reluctant to blame the Ancients as a whole for the actions of subversive ideologues and somehow I doubt the same logic would ever be applied elsewhere in the story. Should the Domans be wiped out because of what Yotsuyu did? Should the Domans be wiped out because of what they did to Yotsuyu in order to make her that way? I don't think so - and I don't think the Ancients deserved to be wiped out either.

Blows my mind how people dont get this, nobody is saying that the Ancients didnt deserve to continue to exist. The whole point is that their "perfect paradise" clearly still had flaws that ultimately caused their own demise due to the actions of one of their own when they're tampering with forces beyond their control. We've seen this parallel a couple of times in this game, such as the Allagans, the Garlean Empire, Mhach, freaking the recent Pandaemonium raids HELLO!! etc. Its because of stuff like this that gave proof to the message that ultimately people themselves will cause their own doom, nothing lasts forever, but that despite all of that, there's still hope that people can find meaning in their lives to make it "worth it".

But back to the whole sundering thing, so ok what would've been a better option then? The story illustrated the Venat and her supporters argued against the Convocation's solution to sacrifice their own to summon Zodirak and advert the Final Days, which wouldnt have been a lasting solution due to Meteion eventually coming to end everything with the song of oblivion and Zodiark wouldnt have been able to deal with that, but without proof of that being the case the Convocation didnt agree with them. I think the confusion here is you're misinterpreting the whole thing about Venat knowing some of the unsundered would survive to cause conflict with her plans. Of course some of the powerful convocation people would survive, she knew that in order for the timeline to still run its intended course she had to allow some of the unfavorable things to occur as long as Zodiark is still imprisoned for our current timeline to exist. Definitely I'll agree that its a very controversial decision in her part but ultimately a necessary one since she believed that the WoL whom she met in her time is the one would be able to combat Meteion's song in the future. Nothing too hard to think about that. You can go ahead and not like it but Im pretty sure that was the intention behind how this narrative was presented, there was no black and white villian here just circumstances and people having to make hard choices for their belief of preserving their world.

[Theodric]

There's nothing to 'get' since nobody is obligated to agree with the idea that genocide is acceptable when some very contrived conditions arise to conveniently handwave and justify it. We also know that Venat did have alternative options available to her if she truly wished to save the Ancients. She could have simply informed them of what she knew, especially since she previously claimed that she thought that 'nothing was impossible'.

Perhaps if the story really wanted us to pretend as if no other option existed then it should not have shown every other major threat be dismantled through ever escalating plot conveniences.

Attack on Titan handled the controversial subject of genocide in a much more tactful manner as far as I'm concerned. It's a real shame that FFXIV did not when it came to Venat and her actions.

[Atelier-Bagur]

There's nothing to 'get' since nobody is obligated to agree with the idea that genocide is acceptable when some very contrived conditions arise to conveniently handwave and justify it. We also know that Venat did have alternative options available to her if she truly wished to save the Ancients. She could have simply informed them of what she knew, especially since she previously claimed that she thought that 'nothing was impossible'.

Perhaps if the story really wanted us to pretend as if no other option existed then it should not have shown every other major threat be dismantled through ever escalating plot conveniences.

Attack on Titan handled the controversial subject of genocide in a much more tactful manner as far as I'm concerned. It's a real shame that FFXIV did not when it came to Venat and her actions.

1. Knowing how extremely stubborn the Ancients were, I doubt they would'nt have believed her without concrete proof of the Final Days due to how the Ancients themselves couldnt know the early warning signs because of their lack of sensing dynamis.

2. She did wind up telling people who would support her which is where the opposing group came from whom rejected the Convocation's summoning of Zodiark, since again, their solution of preserving their world wouldnt have ultimately helped them against Meteion.

3. News flash this game runs of so many plot conveniences because of the nature of the jrpg formula. This isnt some Game of Throne level of deep writing which I think you mentioned somewhere was what you were looking for in FFXIV when all this time it clearly isnt written that way, yes this even includes the beloved Shadowbringers and Heavensward stories, those stories worked not because of how they tried to make every single detail of a character's motive click and concise but because FFXIV's story as a whole resonates more in an emotional level. Endwalker is no different.

4. Does this mean the story is immune to criticism? Absolutely not, I had my fair share of complaints with some aspects of every story's expansion but ultimately I just try to enjoy for what is presented to me and I'm satisfied. I know Im sounding like Im denying of you from your own personal takes but thats not what Im trying to do. Just sharing my own thoughts since I feel sometimes people read into things waaaay too much.

[Vyrerus]

He was very much framed as an antagonist but the word 'villain' was used to describe him at various points and even during some of the interviews released during Shadowbringers.

I said it weeks ago in some long buried argument in Lore, but I view Venat as an, "Anti-Villain." Much in the same vein as Ozymandias from Watchmen.

The grandest desire to do good, while also validating her own morals and perceived superiority.

I mean, think about it. She lived her life flying in the face of Amaurotine society, to a degree, taking what she thought was good and denying what was bad. She already believed herself above her society.

Her act can be described as cruel, and to quote one of the best lessons ever shown in gaming:

"Cruelty leads to suffering. And when one suffers, it is the way of life to spread suffering. The suffering within builds, until its sound is all one hears. And so when a kindness is offered, it is punished. And a greater darkness is served."

KOTOR2's Beggar Problem

Look at Venat's actions, and then imagine that it wasn't a story where the conclusion of victory was predetermined. Imagine if we'd faced Meteion and lost. What would we think of Venat's actions then?

[AnotherPerson]

There's nothing to 'get' since nobody is obligated to agree with the idea that genocide is acceptable when some very contrived conditions arise to conveniently handwave and justify it. We also know that Venat did have alternative options available to her if she truly wished to save the Ancients. She could have simply informed them of what she knew, especially since she previously claimed that she thought that 'nothing was impossible'.

Perhaps if the story really wanted us to pretend as if no other option existed then it should not have shown every other major threat be dismantled through ever escalating plot conveniences.

Attack on Titan handled the controversial subject of genocide in a much more tactful manner as far as I'm concerned. It's a real shame that FFXIV did not when it came to Venat and her actions.

Except Hermes would have to be brought into the fold if all the Convocation were to know - which would work against her because now Hermes could turn against them and they would not have someone who can replace him in the Convocation who also excels in research of outer space & aetherology for future problems (and his expertise was what led them to discover the stagnation of the aether currents & figure out the strategy to forestall the Final Days in the first place). If they let him know before Meteion unleashed the Final Days, he would've turned against them because Venat was supposed to have lost her memories when during their journey in Ktisis Hyperboreia. That would be a worse outcome because now they can't forestall The Final Days at all and the Final Days would've just ended the Ancients then and there after affecting their ability to manipulate aether and creating more blasphemies.

So they had to overcome the Final Days without Venat's direct intervention first for Hermes to accept and judge mankind to be able to pass Meteion's judgement... Except that never happened because the ancients failed and resorted to summoning Zodiark to return to their paradise and wouldn't listen otherwise when Venat tried to get them to accept that immutable truth that suffering exists and their world isn't perfect; even if they go back, pain and despair will still remain (the events of the Endwalker raids prove this to be true too).

This was why the events that led up to our time was pre-destined to happen and Argos ended up being friendly to us. Venat couldn't do anything by the circumstances involving Hermes' resolve and judgement without clueing him in that she remembers and will make the judgement unfair. She could only try to persuade the people. Her attempt was basically always going to fail in our timeline since he was integral to both causing and stopping The Final Days.

[Theodric]

1. Knowing how extremely stubborn the Ancients were, I doubt they would'nt have believed her without concrete proof of the Final Days due to how the Ancients themselves couldnt know the early warning signs because of their lack of sensing dynamis.

2. She did wind up telling people who would support her which is where the opposing group came from whom rejected the Convocation's summoning of Zodiark, since again, their solution of preserving their world wouldnt have ultimately helped them against Meteion.

3. News flash this game runs of so many plot conveniences because of the nature of the jrpg formula. This isnt some Game of Throne level of deep writing which I think you mentioned somewhere was what you were looking for in FFXIV when all this time it clearly isnt written that way, yes this even includes the beloved Shadowbringers and Heavensward stories, those stories worked not because of how they tried to make every single detail of a character's motive click and concise but because FFXIV's story as a whole resonates more in an emotional level. Endwalker is no different.

4. Does this mean the story is immune to criticism? Absolutely not, I had my fair share of complaints with some aspects of every story's expansion but ultimately I just try to enjoy for what is presented to me and I'm satisfied. I know Im sounding like Im denying of you from your own personal takes but thats not what Im trying to do. Just sharing my own thoughts since I feel sometimes people read into things waaaay too much.

1 - The Ancients weren't shown to be unwilling to listen to reason when it came to working to the benefit of Etheirys. Even when Emet-Selch was sceptical of the story told to him by the player character, he vowed to take it seriously since it was his sworn duty as a member of the Convocation. A key point to remember is that Venat wrote off the Ancients based on information she had available that would have helped them. Nor was it ever a guarantee that they were fated to destroy themselves - it was very much framed as her opinion, rather than an inevitable conclusion.

2 - We have no confirmation as to how much she told her supporters, especially when much of her actions involved feigning Zodiark as being the reason for her actions. Keeping Zodiark's power in check was not her actual goal, nor was the third round of sacrifices the reason for doing what she did. A point she herself raises during the conversation in Elpis when speaking about the act.

3 - I've always found such arguments to be disingenuous, personally. The game frequently markets the story as its main selling point and actively encourages speculation, so expecting consistency doesn't strike me as an unreasonable demand. I also do not think that it is unfair to point out that the game had a very different atmosphere back in the days of ARR and HW. An atmosphere many of us came to enjoy and wish to see more of. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I want Game of Thrones level of writing or grit, either. I've only ever pushed for the main characters to not be clad in plot armour at every possible turn.

4 - I noted that you made this comment in another thread related to the story:

inb4 people come in to ruin this thread with "Endwalker sucked, Shadowbringers was still better".

I personally also appreciate and enjoyed what this expansion brought and couldnt get enough of the beautiful leitmotif Soken composed for it. Here's to further adventures in Eorzea.

Just as I wouldn't expect people to deliberately go into a thread praising the story and claiming that it's terrible, I think that deliberately going into a thread where people are raising concerns is very much a faux pas. Obviously I can't stop you, though I will say that I don't see much point in endless circular arguments about an issue that is very much a matter of subjective personal tastes.

I'm not misunderstanding the story. I simply don't agree with Venat's reasoning and I recognise that there were alternative routes that she could have taken as outlined above. She chose to inflict genocide upon her own people after deciding to write them off in favour of fawning over the Sundered instead.

I'm not going to suddenly change my mind and proclaim that genocide is perfectly acceptable so long as it is done a certain way and at this point, after a fair bit of me stating that it's fine to agree to disagree I find it pretty strange to see attempts to change what is obviously a strongly held belief. Over a fictional event, no less.

At this point, I'm pretty much just awaiting the upcoming Live Letter so we can get an indication of the upcoming story. I'm pretty excited to have my character become an adventurer again and I look forward to fighting more 'humble' threats for a while.

[Caurcas]

That's...not really what I was getting at at all.

I simply reasoned that a race that was largely devoid of strife and conflict was more likely to have brought calamity to itself through something like a search for knowledge/answers and/or tampering with forces they didn't have a complete understanding of; both of which were fulfilled with Hermes' creating the Meteia to seek out the peoples of other stars.

But did it have to be a weird bird loli?