Ninja's Ninki Generation Problem Leading to Very Awkward Play Feel

[Xenon_S]

I should preface this by saying that Ninja as of patch 6.08 is fine damage wise. This is not meant to be a post about damage output, my focus is mainly on Ninja's play feel, which are of a more subjective nature. You may think that Ninja is completely fine, to which I mostly agree. But there are some oddities and tweaks that can be made so Ninja can feel even better. Now that's out of the way, let me get to my main point.


Main Point
- Currently Ninja's Ninki Generation is very lopsided, this results in the odd minute Trick Attack sequence being boringly uneventful, even minute Trick Attack sequence being disproportionately busy, and filler phases bordering on AFK.


Problems with odd minute Trick Attacks
- In terms of GCD, you always want to fit 1 Hyosho Ranryu (2.5s), 2 Raiton (5.0s), 2 Raiju (4.14s)
- This leaves 3.36 seconds remaining on TA, where you can fit two regular GCDs
- The only actions that generates Ninki during this sequence being the 2 Raiju and 2 GCD, where the ninki generated by that 2nd GCD will not fit inside the Trick window.
- Depending on what GCD falls into the Trick window, you will generate either 15, 20, or 25 Ninki
- Because the 123 GCD combo generates 5/5/15 Ninki, overcapping Ninki on Aeolian Egde or Armour Crush is disproportionately punishing.
- More often than not, assuming you are using Trick Attack strictly on CD, you will not be able to generate enough Ninki for one extra Bhavacakra from GCDs alone, meaning at most you can get 2 Bhavacakra in an Odd minute Trick Window, most of the time you only get 1.
- A standard Odd Minute Trick Attack sequence is as follows, with oGCD windows in parenthesis

(Trick Attack) - Hyosho Ranryu (Dream within a Dream) - Raiton (Bhavacakra) - Raiton (Bhavacakra?) - Raiju (2 empty weave windows) - Raiju (2 empty weave windows) - GCD (2 empty weave windows) - GCD (Trick Attack ends)

So as you can see, there are 9 oGCD windows in an odd minute trick (10 trick is early weaved and you double weave in there), but at most you only press 3 oGCD buttons.


Now, I'm not advocating that a Trick window should be filled to the brim with weaves, because that is what even minute windows look like and thus very unforgiving.



Problems with even minute Trick Attacks
- As established earlier, there is a 3.36 second window remaining on Trick after the standard fill of 1 Hyosho 2 Raiton 2 Raiju, which is enough time for Tenchijin.
- TCJ will take 1 oGCD window, it gives 1 oGCD window, and introduces 2 oGCD buttons in that of Meisui and 1 more Bhavacakra
- There is also Mug, which is 1 oGCD window, and more often than not generating enough Ninki for 1 more Bhavacakra
- Assuming you enter even minute trick with at least 55 ninki, it will look something like this

(Trick Attack) - Hyosho Ranryu (Dream within a Dream) - Raiton (Bhavacakra) - Raiju (Mug + TCJ) - Tenchijin (Bhavacakra) - Raiton (Meisui) - Raiju (Bhavacakra) (Trick Attack ends)

- If Trick is early weaved, there is a bit more flexibility, but compared to odd minute trick windows, even minute trick windows are disproportionately stricter and busier.



Problems with filler phase
- Given that Ninja wants to put all the big hits into Trick Attack, the filler phase consists of just going the 123 combo, spending Bhavacakra to avoid Ninki overcap, and doing 1 Suiton & Kassatsu to set up the next Trick Attack
- To some extent, hitting Bhavacakra does not have a good reward feedback because we know we cannot effectively pool it for the next Trick window
- Maintaining Huton is not really engaging either, at this point it is more of a chore than an active mechanic. I understand that it would be difficult to turn Huton into a trait given its interaction with Mudra, having it to solely be for a buff upkeep is just not interesting.



Problems with AoE Ninki Generation
- Ninki generation on AoE is just terrible, it takes 10 GCDs to build up to 1 Hellfrog Medium, and you will be prioritizing Doton/Katon anyway so that is even less Ninki.
- All the other melee DPS have faster (or at least the same) rate of resource generation in AoE rotation, Death Blossom/Hakke spam just doesn't feel as good, especially when tanks pull things out of your Doton.



Proposed solutions that won't require immediate reworks
- Normalize Ninki generation on GCDs, instead of 5/5/15, make it 10 across the board for all weapon skills, this way the punishment for overcapping Ninki on the 3rd GCD won't be as severe, and would help with pooling Ninki for Trick windows.
- Allow Ninjutsu actions to generate Ninki as well, perhaps 5 ninki per Ninjutsu.
- Reduce the CD of Mug and Bunshin to 60s. This will give the odd minute Trick windows more buttons to press, and generate more Ninki from Bunshin, without further burdening even minute Trick windows.



Problems requiring more extensive reworks, considerations for 7.0 perhaps

Huton
- As mentioned earlier, Huton upkeep is not engaging nor interesting.
- If we look at other DPS classes: MNK's greased lightning, DRG's Blood of the dragon, BLM's enochian have all been made into traits; MCH Hot Shot and BRD Straightshot have been removed and repurposed from simple damage multiplier; MNK's twin snake, DRG's disembowel, SAM's shifu&jinpu are all 2nd step combos that leads to something else, where the buff upkeep is not the main focus.
- It should be turned into a trait, and the Mudra input be repurposed into something else.
- Perhaps introduce a prepull/downtime tool similar to RPR's Soul Sow/Harvest Moon.


Tenchijin, specifically the Suiton from TCJ
- Previously in Stormblood, there is the option to use the suiton from TCJ to setup a Trick, or use TCJ in Trick for more damage, leaving a suiton hanging (or even just skipping that suiton)
- Meisui was introduced in Shadowbringers, and after adjustment so its CD aligns with TCJ, encourages the use of TCJ inside trick and consuming the suiton for extra Ninki.
- With TCJ raiton giving raiju, and meisui granting enhanved bhavacakra, the incentive to use TCJ in trick is even higher, but this leads to further button bloat and essentially punishes the use of TCJ/Meisui outside trick.
- This could be solved by repurposing Meisui into an attack button, eliminating the need to juggle ninki overcap and a subsequent cast of Bhavacakra
- Alternatively, since the idea is to use TCJ in trick anyway, take the Kassatsu route and upgrade the suiton in TCJ to something else, doing this will also eliminate meisui, freeing up a space on the hotbar.



TLDR/Conclusion
- Normalize Ninki Generation to 10 per weaponskill.
- Reduce Mug & Bunshin to 60s so odd minute trick windows are somewhat more engaging.
- Huton should be a trait, make the mudra combination do something else, maybe a downtime tool similar to soul sow, rework goal for 7.0
- Meisui or TCJ Suiton could be reworked to reduce button bloat.
- Ninja is mostly fine, but if you don't feel a little bad when you are 95/100 on Ninki and 2 GCDs away from Trick, I'm happy for you but this post is probably not for you.

[Theihe]

Very well thought out points, and although I'd like to add onto it- I am certainly not as formal or well spoken as you.


Huton
Moving Huton to 60 seconds as opposed to the previous 70 was a mistake. It has removed the leeway which used to be there, where you could move your positionals around to better work around boss positions- now you really do not have much of an option. Refresh it at 3 seconds or lose it.
You can no longer hold Huton through extended cutscenes (most notably TEA) and although one might think Hurajin would be a decent tradeoff- it's a bandaid fix to a problem which the developers themselves created. It also feels absolutely awful in content before lvl 54. Please revert it. The current state of it is stressful.
Huton to 60 is a change for change's sake. Do not change what isn't broken.


Mudras and the current state of Rabbit Medium
Hear me out, this shit has got to go.
Ninja is one of the most punishing jobs in this game. And I truly do mean that when I say it.
Mudra rollback, inputs skipping, not being able to queue abilities is clunky- and anyone who is fine with the current state of Mudras have Stockholm Syndrome.
Having to weave Trick second in your oGCD window and no longer having Shadow Fang as a reliable button to spam to ensure you won't clip is CLUNKY AND UNFUN.
Now I do understand that some people simply have better ping, but my ping is really good and even I have mudra inputs randomly skipping every few days. And if it happens to me I can't imagine how bad it is for some people.

The mudra system, in it's current state, is also very bad at translating information.

Clicked: Ten -> Chi- but you see Fuma? Well now you have to guess.
- Do you use that Fuma and guarantee potency?
- Do you hope that Ten counted and not Chi? Risk it and either get 650 potency + Raiju 560 potency or get 0.

Clicked: Ten -> Chi -> Ninjutsu -> Kassatsu- but Ninjutsu didn't activate? Well you just lost Kassatsu aswell as Raiton and Raiju.

Have Kassatsu up, do Ten -> Jin for Hyosho, see the icon for Hyosho? have Kassatsu fall off and use Hyoton.

"Don't be bad at the game" is not a viable argument, and you don't sound as smart as you think you do when you say it. I am good at the game. I am aware these issues can happen. My musclememory has been trained to work around this for thousands of hours. And it still happens.
I shouldn't feel like I need to tip-toe around my kit. I shouldn't feel like the abilities at my disposal try to work against me. And I sure as fuck shouldn't be punished with thousands of potencies lost because the server decided to have an epileptic attack and roll back my mudras.
Know what job also needs to combine buttons in a specific order? Dancer.
Know what Dancer lose if they click the wrong dance step? Nothing. Nothing at all. You can use Standard step then press 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 and still get the same ability, at the same potency. The only obvious downside being that you would lose time.

And the developers know this is a problem- which is why they don't let us bunny during TCJ. They know it's a problem. Created a fix for the problem. And then went halfway. Creating two separate rulesets for the same system. This is bad design.
It is unfun. Would the job be worse off if mudras were greyed out upon usage, just like they already are during TCJ?
It would be more intuitive, responsive, and would honestly make the entire job flow so much better.


Trick Clunk
You know that Trick that comes up 1 minute into the fight that doesn't properly align with your GCD? You either have to chill on the 2nd hit of your combo, stand around doing nothing, and then push Trick on cooldown to ensure you don't drift- or use it after the third hit, resulting in some drift, and less personal potency under trick.
Well in Shadowbringers the mudra that was left after your initial burst could be turned into a Doton. This would push your GCD 0.5 seconds forward, resulting in a perfectly timed trick. Well now with Raiju that is just straight up not happening. On that note- if I wanted discount fell cleaves I would play DRK.

This point isn't that expanded upon but it is honestly one of the things I miss the absolute most about this job currently. Freedom.

The new Huton is restrictive. The Raijus are restrictive. Mudras feel restrictive. The Ninki system is not only uninteractive it's also somehow restrictive.

The downtime in NIN, often cited as a negative aspect for many players, was what I loved about the job. And even then it was one of the highest APM jobs in the game. Now I have a burst that doesn't even fit under my own buff and it feels garbage.


Trick isn't "support".
Trick isn't support.
It's damage.
It is damage Ninja themselve doesn't bring- and in turn they need 7 other people to make up for it by actually press buttons.
If none of the 7 other people have a death debuff, damage down, bad gear, drifted their rotation and they actually use raidfood and pot during the correct window- only then does Ninja contribrute equal to their other melee counterparts.
You are giving up agency if you play Ninja. And you are gaining nothing.
It isn't a support job.
You know what ability NIN has that actively helps the team survive? Feint. Feint is a real support ability. And every single DPS has either exactly the same thing- or a better variant.


TLDR/End

All this busywork with the highest APM in the game, and all we got was:
Abilities that don't align with burst windows (Hello Bunshin).
An incredibly uninteractive gauge (Gain Ninki to spend Ninki to gain Ninki to spend Ninki to gain Ninki to spend it on Bunshin every 90 seconds- so that you can gain more Ninki so you can spend more Ninki).
Abilities that we click on once every 2 minutes that just clog hotbar space (Mug & Meisui) that do nothing but give us more Ninki so we can spend more Ninki.
A gapcloser you don't want to use since it would put you outside of oGCD range- so it would mean gutting your entire burst.
Huton at 60 seconds.
A new fancy action off of Bunshin that you don't want to put under Trick anyways since it's a loss.
AoE potencies gutted, so they gave us a fancy new trait to Doton (which has such a small range you can't catch all enemies in it anyways- that is if the tank doesn't pull them all straight out) which just barely makes up for the loss. (Hint: it doesn't.)

Ninja is currently the least played job in the game and it doesn't even get mentioned by the developers as a thing they want to look into.
The only reason people aren't complaining is because all the NIN mains left.

[Equitable_Remedy]

Two thoughts:

1) I find it conflicting to both complain that there's not enough to do outside of trick and complain that it's best to hit some bhavas outside of trick. Aesthetically, I don't see why ninki generation needs to result in exactly trick-aligned bhavas; the potency of bhava v. speed of ninki generation and lining up with trick is a separate question (since, for instance, ninki generation could be changed to align bhavas with trick and potency could be adjust to make it DPS-neutral).

2) I strongly disagree that NIN needs more outside of trick. The strength of the class system is exactly that classes can vary along different metrics (for instance, pacing) and players can find the classes that they like most. NIN is a class with high APM in and around trick and low APM outside of trick while having one-minute trick windows. Lots of other DPS classes have smoother APM over the course of their rotations, and I think that the variety is itself valuable to maintain. I'm someone for whom NIN pacing works really well, and homogenizing toward the median APM through the rotation would make the game less fun for me.

[Theihe]

Two thoughts:

1) I find it conflicting to both complain that there's not enough to do outside of trick and complain that it's best to hit some bhavas outside of trick. Aesthetically, I don't see why ninki generation needs to result in exactly trick-aligned bhavas; the potency of bhava v. speed of ninki generation and lining up with trick is a separate question (since, for instance, ninki generation could be changed to align bhavas with trick and potency could be adjust to make it DPS-neutral).

2) I strongly disagree that NIN needs more outside of trick. The strength of the class system is exactly that classes can vary along different metrics (for instance, pacing) and players can find the classes that they like most. NIN is a class with high APM in and around trick and low APM outside of trick while having one-minute trick windows. Lots of other DPS classes have smoother APM over the course of their rotations, and I think that the variety is itself valuable to maintain. I'm someone for whom NIN pacing works really well, and homogenizing toward the median APM through the rotation would make the game less fun for me.

Pretty solid points, these are my two cents as I am in no way shape or form a spokesperson for the entire playerbase yada yada yada.

1)
I personally don't mind that there's a downtime outside of TA where we have to use Bhavas; not entierly atleast. There is an issue with player perception though. "Use X thing under Y and do more dmg, use X thing outside of Y and do less dmg". It feels bad. In ShB NIN's burst was tightly tuned to be exactly as long as it had to be in order for everything to fit under the window (outside of the occassional Bhava you had to spend outside)- but now the burst window is so long that Trick literally cannot catch all of it. And it feels really really bad.
Making it DPS neutral isn't possible due to the way TA functions- although it would be very much ideal.

2)
I agree with this, and it's very well formulated.

[Elena_Farron]

I understand the reasoning behind changing the Ninki gain since I also made a post about it in my older thread,
but just tacking on things on top that you want changed about Ninja without considering how those changes would affect the playfeel of Ninja needs some rethinking... I just want to address those points and why I think those do not warrant changing, coming from someone who is currently doing speedkills on Ninja.

- Bunshin being 90s is a good thing because of the interaction with Phantom Kamaitachi. If Bunshin was 60s it would be totally pointless for PK to be a 45s buff and would remove the utility of using it as a skill to cover downtime since you would only use it in trick otherwise.

- I can't think of how awful it would be if Ninjutsu generated Ninki because a lot of the time you specifically use Ninjutsu to hold an amount of 90-100 Ninki without overcapping to use after the Ninjutsu and is actually done very frequently in highly optimized Trick Attack windows. Additionally this wouldn't really make sense thematically.

- Lastly I must say that changing Huton is not enough to warrant completely turn it into a trait. Other melees had this type of rework applied to them because their kit was counterintuitive towards managing such a gauge, whereas Ninja does actively interact with the Huton gauge most of the time.

There is some merit in adjusting the Ninki generation but it isn't detrimental to Ninjas effectiveness or playfeel right now. I do not think Ninja needs any more simplification especially when it comes to Mudras, and if you can work around any percieved restrictiveness then it doesn't warrant any major changes to the way abilities function. If there was something about current Ninja that I didn't like I'm sure I would discuss it here again. But just because Ninja is currently the least played job in Savage content doesn't warrant any reworking of the job.

The low playercount is a side effect of the damage done to its kit in 6.0 and ever since the changes to Raiju the playercount has been going up slowly, so I'd please ask you not to overreact and enjoy the job and wait for people to return to it. As of right now it is still played a good amount in Ultimate content as well and as people find time to level other jobs the number will even out with other melee jobs.

[Theihe]

- Bunshin being 90s is a good thing because of the interaction with Phantom Kamaitachi. If Bunshin was 60s it would be totally pointless for PK to be a 45s buff and would remove the utility of using it as a skill to cover downtime since you would only use it in trick otherwise.

The low playercount is a side effect of the damage done to its kit in 6.0 and ever since the changes to Raiju the playercount has been going up slowly, so I'd please ask you not to overreact and enjoy the job and wait for people to return to it. As of right now it is still played a good amount in Ultimate content as well and as people find time to level other jobs the number will even out with other melee jobs.

In regards to these two points, Bunshin being 60 seconds wouldn't change usage of PK? Atleast I don't see your point of why it would?
You, currently, do not want to use it under TA a lot of the time if the GCD you spend on it could've otherwise been spent on a Raiju (often possible) or AE which would lead to a Bhava where PK wouldn't (situational).

While I see what you're trying to say, calling my gripes "overreactions" is handwaving issues.
Being able to "work around restrictiveness" does warrant discussions and it should be adressed by the developers- because implementing restrictiveness where there otherwise was none is bad per design.


Ninja releasing in it's 6.0 state was borderline offensive, but how that somehow slipped by and was allowed into the live game is a discussion for another time- and although it most likely contribrutes to the lower playercount at the moment- it is plain to see that the other melees are currently in a better state. The fact that we got a new flashy melee probably doesn't help either to be fair.

One job will always have to be at the bottom, such is the nature of game balance. But having one of the most played jobs drop to one of the least played, so substantionally while the devs fail to adress it doesn't sit right with me, and it does leave a sour taste in my mouth.

Do not take this post as an attempt to argue, reading it back it comes off as a bit of misdirected hostility which should be aimed towards the current design-> but rather comes off as hostility towards you. Such is not my intention

[Elena_Farron]

In regards to these two points, Bunshin being 60 seconds wouldn't change usage of PK? Atleast I don't see your point of why it would?
You, currently, do not want to use it under TA a lot of the time if the GCD you spend on it could've otherwise been spent on a Raiju (often possible) or AE which would lead to a Bhava where PK wouldn't (situational).

The reason is because with the current version of PK you do want it to be inside Trick, and in those cases in which it's a loss to do so, it's still best used around burst timers since it can then fall into other jobs raidbuffs. So in the ideal scenario you'll always use it around burst timers.

With a 60s Bunshin you'd just never have PK sitting ready for a disconnect and while yes you can plan ahead of time if you know there is a mechanic that you'll need it on, it will feel bad to get PK prior to a burst window, and then delay it for way after the burst window ends. The potency would also be nerfed accordingly for both Bunshin and PK and it wouldn't really be satisfying anymore. I'm more for creating opportunities for decisions rather than reducing them.

I also know this might come off as a surprise but since you refer to the state of all melees, Ninja is very far from being in a bad state right now. It feels very similar to how it did in Shadowbringers, even more versatile I'd argue. And other melees are definitely far from perfect either.

I feel like a lot of players need to stop asking for jobs to be made so uniform (even though SE is already moving towards that direction), and simply try a different job.

[Grimoire-M]

Personally I'm okay with Huton (the button, not the buff) the way it is. I do miss the leeway on the buff. However, I'd like Hurajin added to Ninja's ARR rotation rather than being gained at level 60. There's zero reason for that.

I'm also of the opinion that Mug, Meisui, and Bunshin should be consolidated down to two buttons. I don't necessarily care which two of those gets merged, but two of those three should get merged, just because they're more bloat than anything and it's a good way to improve the levelling experience and solve the cooldown reduction and potential power budget issues. It's possible we could introduce Mug as a low level version of Bhava, for example. Maybe the Ninki generation moves onto Assassinate/DWD to smooth things out? Overall, while normalizing Ninki generation would help, it also affects these skills. So I'd rather lop it all together into a rework in the long run.


Trick's fine as is, but after this tier I can tell there's going to be a need for raid buff leniency in the long run if SE's going to keep throwing Raidbuff aligned mechanics curveballs in harder content. Specifically a charge action rework that allows for variable caps, depending on whether you're in combat or not. This would allow some high cooldown skills (In NIN's case TCJ and TA come to mind) to exist at one charge out of combat but go up to two once you enter combat (though there's some concerns with Dungeons, I really don't care if someone goes ham in those). I think with how tight they're making mechanics checks it's ultimately necessary. A lot of the reason high APM jobs like NIN aren't played are because they're too intense for the average player going into savage relative to other options (Ranged Physical + Endwalker SMN). While I'd prefer SE slow things down, I don't think the extra leniency is a bad thing to have around whether that happens or not.

[Xenon_S]

Two thoughts:

1) I find it conflicting to both complain that there's not enough to do outside of trick and complain that it's best to hit some bhavas outside of trick. Aesthetically, I don't see why ninki generation needs to result in exactly trick-aligned bhavas; the potency of bhava v. speed of ninki generation and lining up with trick is a separate question (since, for instance, ninki generation could be changed to align bhavas with trick and potency could be adjust to make it DPS-neutral).

2) I strongly disagree that NIN needs more outside of trick. The strength of the class system is exactly that classes can vary along different metrics (for instance, pacing) and players can find the classes that they like most. NIN is a class with high APM in and around trick and low APM outside of trick while having one-minute trick windows. Lots of other DPS classes have smoother APM over the course of their rotations, and I think that the variety is itself valuable to maintain. I'm someone for whom NIN pacing works really well, and homogenizing toward the median APM through the rotation would make the game less fun for me.

Thank you for your response, a few points I would like to clarify.
1. My main issue with ninki generation is that, with AE/AC giving 15, you are punished more if you overcap ninki with AE/AC. In this sense, I perceive hitting Bhavas out of trick as something that I have to do to avoid overcapping ninki, a somewhat negative association, as opposed to simply hitting it for damage.

2. My argument is not that ninja needs more buttons out of trick, but rather that the filler phase is not really engaging. Given how majority of ninja's damage comes from non-GCD abilities, you can effectively AFK during the filler phase, do 1 huraijin and 1 suiton, and the Trick window will be more or less the same minus 1 or 2 Bhavas. I'm also not arguing for ninja APM to be normalized, if anything the root of my complaints is that odd minute Trick windows being too tame.

[Xenon_S]

Appreciate your detailed inputs, and I'm quite flattered that you think I'm well spoken XD.

And you hit the nail on the head, Ninja feels restrictive.

I can no longer freely disenage with a Raiton for minimum loss, that will cost me a whopping 650+560 potency inside trick.
I can no longer slightly overcap ninki to get more Bhavas in trick because GCD ninki generation is backloaded.
With everyone having 2min bursts, it becomes even more vital for us to get trick right on CD without any leeway of GCD optimization in trick.
Heck I even miss Dancing Edge, the option for a combo ender when I'm forced out of positionals, not to mention the beautiful animation.