Ninja's Ninki Generation Problem Leading to Very Awkward Play Feel

[Elena_Farron]

I understand the reasoning behind changing the Ninki gain since I also made a post about it in my older thread,
but just tacking on things on top that you want changed about Ninja without considering how those changes would affect the playfeel of Ninja needs some rethinking... I just want to address those points and why I think those do not warrant changing, coming from someone who is currently doing speedkills on Ninja.

- Bunshin being 90s is a good thing because of the interaction with Phantom Kamaitachi. If Bunshin was 60s it would be totally pointless for PK to be a 45s buff and would remove the utility of using it as a skill to cover downtime since you would only use it in trick otherwise.

- I can't think of how awful it would be if Ninjutsu generated Ninki because a lot of the time you specifically use Ninjutsu to hold an amount of 90-100 Ninki without overcapping to use after the Ninjutsu and is actually done very frequently in highly optimized Trick Attack windows. Additionally this wouldn't really make sense thematically.

- Lastly I must say that changing Huton is not enough to warrant completely turn it into a trait. Other melees had this type of rework applied to them because their kit was counterintuitive towards managing such a gauge, whereas Ninja does actively interact with the Huton gauge most of the time.

There is some merit in adjusting the Ninki generation but it isn't detrimental to Ninjas effectiveness or playfeel right now. I do not think Ninja needs any more simplification especially when it comes to Mudras, and if you can work around any percieved restrictiveness then it doesn't warrant any major changes to the way abilities function. If there was something about current Ninja that I didn't like I'm sure I would discuss it here again. But just because Ninja is currently the least played job in Savage content doesn't warrant any reworking of the job.

The low playercount is a side effect of the damage done to its kit in 6.0 and ever since the changes to Raiju the playercount has been going up slowly, so I'd please ask you not to overreact and enjoy the job and wait for people to return to it. As of right now it is still played a good amount in Ultimate content as well and as people find time to level other jobs the number will even out with other melee jobs.

[Theihe]

- Bunshin being 90s is a good thing because of the interaction with Phantom Kamaitachi. If Bunshin was 60s it would be totally pointless for PK to be a 45s buff and would remove the utility of using it as a skill to cover downtime since you would only use it in trick otherwise.

The low playercount is a side effect of the damage done to its kit in 6.0 and ever since the changes to Raiju the playercount has been going up slowly, so I'd please ask you not to overreact and enjoy the job and wait for people to return to it. As of right now it is still played a good amount in Ultimate content as well and as people find time to level other jobs the number will even out with other melee jobs.

In regards to these two points, Bunshin being 60 seconds wouldn't change usage of PK? Atleast I don't see your point of why it would?
You, currently, do not want to use it under TA a lot of the time if the GCD you spend on it could've otherwise been spent on a Raiju (often possible) or AE which would lead to a Bhava where PK wouldn't (situational).

While I see what you're trying to say, calling my gripes "overreactions" is handwaving issues.
Being able to "work around restrictiveness" does warrant discussions and it should be adressed by the developers- because implementing restrictiveness where there otherwise was none is bad per design.


Ninja releasing in it's 6.0 state was borderline offensive, but how that somehow slipped by and was allowed into the live game is a discussion for another time- and although it most likely contribrutes to the lower playercount at the moment- it is plain to see that the other melees are currently in a better state. The fact that we got a new flashy melee probably doesn't help either to be fair.

One job will always have to be at the bottom, such is the nature of game balance. But having one of the most played jobs drop to one of the least played, so substantionally while the devs fail to adress it doesn't sit right with me, and it does leave a sour taste in my mouth.

Do not take this post as an attempt to argue, reading it back it comes off as a bit of misdirected hostility which should be aimed towards the current design-> but rather comes off as hostility towards you. Such is not my intention

[Elena_Farron]

In regards to these two points, Bunshin being 60 seconds wouldn't change usage of PK? Atleast I don't see your point of why it would?
You, currently, do not want to use it under TA a lot of the time if the GCD you spend on it could've otherwise been spent on a Raiju (often possible) or AE which would lead to a Bhava where PK wouldn't (situational).

The reason is because with the current version of PK you do want it to be inside Trick, and in those cases in which it's a loss to do so, it's still best used around burst timers since it can then fall into other jobs raidbuffs. So in the ideal scenario you'll always use it around burst timers.

With a 60s Bunshin you'd just never have PK sitting ready for a disconnect and while yes you can plan ahead of time if you know there is a mechanic that you'll need it on, it will feel bad to get PK prior to a burst window, and then delay it for way after the burst window ends. The potency would also be nerfed accordingly for both Bunshin and PK and it wouldn't really be satisfying anymore. I'm more for creating opportunities for decisions rather than reducing them.

I also know this might come off as a surprise but since you refer to the state of all melees, Ninja is very far from being in a bad state right now. It feels very similar to how it did in Shadowbringers, even more versatile I'd argue. And other melees are definitely far from perfect either.

I feel like a lot of players need to stop asking for jobs to be made so uniform (even though SE is already moving towards that direction), and simply try a different job.

[Grimoire-M]

Personally I'm okay with Huton (the button, not the buff) the way it is. I do miss the leeway on the buff. However, I'd like Hurajin added to Ninja's ARR rotation rather than being gained at level 60. There's zero reason for that.

I'm also of the opinion that Mug, Meisui, and Bunshin should be consolidated down to two buttons. I don't necessarily care which two of those gets merged, but two of those three should get merged, just because they're more bloat than anything and it's a good way to improve the levelling experience and solve the cooldown reduction and potential power budget issues. It's possible we could introduce Mug as a low level version of Bhava, for example. Maybe the Ninki generation moves onto Assassinate/DWD to smooth things out? Overall, while normalizing Ninki generation would help, it also affects these skills. So I'd rather lop it all together into a rework in the long run.


Trick's fine as is, but after this tier I can tell there's going to be a need for raid buff leniency in the long run if SE's going to keep throwing Raidbuff aligned mechanics curveballs in harder content. Specifically a charge action rework that allows for variable caps, depending on whether you're in combat or not. This would allow some high cooldown skills (In NIN's case TCJ and TA come to mind) to exist at one charge out of combat but go up to two once you enter combat (though there's some concerns with Dungeons, I really don't care if someone goes ham in those). I think with how tight they're making mechanics checks it's ultimately necessary. A lot of the reason high APM jobs like NIN aren't played are because they're too intense for the average player going into savage relative to other options (Ranged Physical + Endwalker SMN). While I'd prefer SE slow things down, I don't think the extra leniency is a bad thing to have around whether that happens or not.

[VentVanitas]

Unless it's returning the timer back to 70 seconds, don't touch Huton. It's fine, it doesn't need to be passive like GL or BotD.