Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[EaraGrace]

Except he would have remembered Elpis had he died, so that’s pretty odd. Also, other the quickest way to get his aid would have been to tell him about Meteion, which she didn’t, even though she had 12,000 years to mention it.

Also strange to me how Yoshi-P’s words are up for debate in this instance, but not in regards to the Plenty being the inescapable end of the Unsundered, since both are put forth as dev supposition.

Then perhaps it’s more desire to retain both a powerful ally and someone willing to fight for the star? Hermes memories did indeed come back even after the Sundering, but Hermes himself, his love for animals and his personality were lost as a consequence. Should Emet have been Sundered and died, he would inevitably end up dissipating into the aetheric sea, and be reborn as a new person. One with lessened strength, unique personality, differing outlook on the world, and only vague dreams of Elpis. Which would leave Hythlo as the only one to join us in Ultima, or help us out at all should we need it.

The quote from the Q&A begins by referencing the scene in Ultima Thule where Emet discusses the idea that his role in what has happened has all been a part of Venat's plan, and then expands from a place of confirming the accuracy of his supposition. "As you think back to the text towards the end Emet-Selch did imply that Venat let him live unsundered. In fact Venat did intentionally leave a tiny floor in her Sundering attack... (etc)"

As a reminder, this is the quote from Emet which is being referred to here.



In my opinion, in context, this represents a confirmation of what Emet is saying in this scene - that she spared him to "tie these frayed threads of history", which is to say, to resolve the time loop.

Right that makes sense post Zodiark destruction. The timeline playing out as it did is the only option left. She would need him to finish the loop, but before that is still blurry. She notably only says “a conjunction has begun to form” only after our visit to the First, and then confirms the convergence when we mention Elpis to her in the Aetherial Sea. Which would suggest it’s up in the air before then. Which leaves us with both the issue of the Calamities and her efforts to halt them, calamities that would be necessary for the time line to be maintained.

It’s in that that I remain questioning.

[SilversLyu]

This is the big thing I still have questions on. We have numerous examples to draw from showing Venat working to prevent the calamities the Unsundered brought about, and we have her own statements pre and during Endwalker where she says she’s working against them. All of this would suggest she doesn’t want them to happen, so then why leave the crack for Emet? If she only intended Emet to make it through, perhaps due to his role in Elpis, then it’s all relatively self explanatory. If not, and she intended all three to escape, then we have a contradiction.

So idk lol

That's the tricky one. Mayhaps we will see more about it in the story or Pandaemonium but I doubt the latter. The harsh answer is that she needed them as part of her plan.. two sides of the same coin. As in allowing conflict and chaos as a means to provide a new striving for the sundered world and it's people and not fall into the perfection trap. I admit that this answer does not satisfy me and neither most of you I guess. Because they are "flawed" anyway and perfection does not really exist. Then there is the argument that she didn't seem to care about the people on the shards. I can say that there is still a few things left that need to be discussed. Or it's up to us the players, as Hydaelyn never truly was intended to be the always correct being. Especially as the story went on, of course they had to give her some sympathy too.

[SpectrePhantasia]

Yeah, I think it is pretty clear that her letting Emet (and friends) live was so that she could at least loosely maintain the events that were relayed to her. It's just the only explanation that makes sense, otherwise there is absolutely no reason to leave Emet be, knowing what he would do. This in mind, her previous 'failures' as she put it, are either lore bits that did not age well, or straight up lies—the more sensible explanation, as she has done that before. Not a good look to be like ' I let all those happen so we can get to the point in the world I have knowledge about,' even if it is for a good cause.

But that's the problem with Venat isn't it? She held on so tightly to that vision of a hopeful future, that she dared not make palpable change in any noticeable regard to her own time. To the point where becoming aware of the WoL's world made her all but completely give up on her own people. She let millions upon millions die all for this purpose, and now the Rejoinings add to her body count. These were the losses that Venat was willing to incur to win her future, and as the devs have put it, she can absolutely be criticized for cowardly following the path of least resistance.

I'm glad to see the acknowledged comparison between her and Emet-selch, as she also stubbornly refused to look at things in any other way, and really is a mirror of his beliefs.

[Absimiliard]

Also strange to me how Yoshi-P’s words are up for debate in this instance, but not in regards to the Plenty being the inescapable end of the Unsundered, since both are put forth as dev supposition.

The wording leads me to believe the dev team's position is simply that the Ancients would have met with a similar fate if they had continued on their chosen course, not that it was the only possible outcome for them. The story being what it is, that's all we have to go off of. The reality is that we cannot say they wouldn't have continued on that course, although my personal opinion is that any reasonable, rational people would look at other possibilities once emotions were no longer controlling them. Desperation leads to doing stupid things, but we often rethink those things once the desperation is passed.

[Lauront]

The wording leads me to believe the dev team's position is simply that the Ancients would have met with a similar fate if they had continued on their chosen course, not that it was the only possible outcome for them. The story being what it is, that's all we have to go off of. The reality is that we cannot say they wouldn't have continued on that course, although my personal opinion is that any reasonable, rational people would look at other possibilities once emotions were no longer controlling them. Desperation leads to doing stupid things, but we often rethink those things once the desperation is passed.

Indeed, that's how I read it as well - I put up the transcript that was posted in reddit here for it. Any claims about them not being capable of changing are attributed to Venat's beliefs.

[EaraGrace]

Yeah, I think it is pretty clear that her letting Emet (and friends) live was so that she could at least loosely maintain the events that were relayed to her. It's just the only explanation that makes sense, otherwise there is absolutely no reason to leave Emet be, knowing what he would do.

I could see a lot of reasons to leave one of three people who would know of Meteion, who also happens to be a powerful sorcerer and a pragmatist, alive. Ultimately the question hinges on whether the other two were as intended as he was, which requires information we don’t have. We know they were together for some reason, and that the crack was only capable of being utilized by Emet. Venat somehow got the three of them together at the perfect moment, and hinged everything in a gamble that they’d make through, a fact that Yoshi P notes was far from certain. It’s a lot more of a gamble than simply hoping he makes it but not necessarily needing him as the alternative would have.

This in mind, her previous 'failures' as she put it, are either lore bits that did not age well, or straight up lies—the more sensible explanation, as she has done that before. Not a good look to be like ' I let all those happen so we can get to the point in the world I have knowledge about,' even if it is for a good cause.

I can think of only one major lie, which is regarding Zodiark and Hydaelyns origins, a lie that was explicitly addressed in the narrative. I understand that some believe her to be an outrageous lying manipulator, but that’s not how I see her and I am not swayed by that argument, especially when other explanations exist and remain logical.

But that's the problem with Venat isn't it? She held on so tightly to that vision of a hopeful future, that she dared not make palpable change in any noticeable regard to her own time. To the point where becoming aware of the WoL's world made her all but completely give up on her own people. She let millions upon millions die all for this purpose, and now the Rejoinings add to her body count. These were the losses that Venat was willing to incur to win her future, and as the devs have put it, she can absolutely be criticized for cowardly following the path of least resistance.

Once again I heavily disagree. If she were so set on the timeline we presented, there would be no need to approach or try to convince the Ancients and thr Convocation. There would be no need to resist the calamities that she knows about, nor any reason to expend needed strength to go against them. Her efforts to stop Fandaniel and Zenos from killing Zodiark would not make sense if this were true. Her actions don’t speak to this motivation, nor do her words. Thus, I don’t believe it’s true.

[SilversLyu]

In general I feel pity for Venat. She made such a huge decision and sticked with it until the very end. Maybe rescuing the shards was not possible for her but she did what she could and focused on the Source. An alternative as to why she let the unsundered escape is perhaps if her plan fails to beat meteion, they could still use Zodiark etc. to fullfill their side of the plan and live on. All in all it cant get more morally grey than that. The Ancients are all controversial, but thats the point. Nobody is perfect. Not even they. Hydaelyn also said that she ain't holy.

Again what would you have done at the Final Days? It's easy to sound houlier than thou in this debate, when it's not.

[SpectrePhantasia]

.

Hmm yes, today I will:
-Shatter a man's home's destroying it utterly and completely
-Erase the history of his people from the world, there being no recording or recollection of it anywhere but in his memory
-Obliterate each and every person that he knows, splitting them across 14 different worlds
-And subject him to viewing the short, short lives, of people who require more sustenance to survive, and kill each other for reasons I know he will find inane.

Are you honestly going to cling to the idea that Emet doing what he did in retaliation wasn't EXACTLY what she had intended? Look, you can believe whatever you want, I'm not going to go on pages with you like you do others, but while I admit there is guesswork in my conclusions, this is an Occam's razor situation. If they really wanted to sell Venat wanting diplomacy above all else, they would have shown her doing such with Elidibus, the heart of Zodiark who SPECIFICALLY withdrew himself from the primal for diplomacy, instead they had her plead with a bunch of nameless strawmen. It's too tough a sell to try to convince me of anything else here, sorry.

[KizuyaKatogami]

In general I feel pity for Venat. She made such a huge decision and sticked with it until the very end. Maybe rescuing the shards was not possible for her but she did what she could and focused on the Source. An alternative as to why she let the unsundered escape is perhaps if her plan fails to beat meteion, they could still use Zodiark etc. to fullfill their side of the plan and live on. All in all it cant get more morally grey than that. The Ancients are all controversial, but thats the point. Nobody is perfect. Not even they. Hydaelyn also said that she ain't holy.

Fact remains though the story itself treats her as a herois and some benevolent person. That’s the problem many people have. We didn’t have the story painting Emet as some heroine.

[SilversLyu]

Fact remains though the story itself treats her as a herois and some benevolent person. That’s the problem many people have. We didn’t have the story painting Emet as some heroine.

What I like about this is, that Emet is the hero of his own people. Venat on the other hand gave it all for a new way of life, wether you agree or not. So it's quite feasable that the people of the new world (also us) would be more positive towards her than Emet. But that would be an entire different debate, cuz they dont have a clue as to what happened and probably cant comprehend it.