Living Dead Change: Instead of Death, make it impose "Weakness"

[kaynide]

Yeah.. they really need to make all the invulnerabilities more similar in effect..like no bad points.

Since PLD gets a straight invuln, it could be you drop to 1 hp and can’t go below 1 hp… then you gain massive hp-steal with attacks, ideally healing yourself to max. That’s it, no negatives. Ideally popped when you are about to die anyway, hopefully ending with more hp than you started. Essentially holmgang+hp drain, whereas holmgang locks mobs in place. (Arguably Holmgang should do a little more too, like offer some defense to nearby party members)

Paladin as is, is just incredibly good with its unconditional invuln and clemency…the other tanks need stuff on par.

[Shougun]

Yeah.. they really need to make all the invulnerabilities more similar in effect..like no bad points.

Since PLD gets a straight invuln, it could be you drop to 1 hp and can’t go below 1 hp… then you gain massive hp-steal with attacks, ideally healing yourself to max. That’s it, no negatives. Ideally popped when you are about to die anyway, hopefully ending with more hp than you started. Essentially holmgang+hp drain, whereas holmgang locks mobs in place. (Arguably Holmgang should do a little more too, like offer some defense to nearby party members)

Paladin as is, is just incredibly good with its unconditional invuln and clemency…the other tanks need stuff on par.

I assume there will be a longer cooldown than paladin then? Otherwise you made it better than Paladin while having a shorter cooldown (as long as there is something to attack).

Holmgang has a massively shorter cooldown with the same duration as paladin and warrior has loads of easy self heals, there are many situations where warrior anti buster can be better than paladin.... Please don't overate hallowed ground (it's good, just warrior's is also good, and DRK is very stressful lol), in casual content the simplicity of paladin's is definitely nice but it isn't exclusively useful (warrior's especially with their insane self heals that don't kill their damage like paladin, are also exceptionally powerful and don't need even more buffs).

I do agree that dark knight anti buster is the most frustrating, like old warrior pacification issues. I also like the idea of a vampire anti-tank buster though.

[kaynide]

I assume there will be a longer cooldown than paladin then? Otherwise you made it better than Paladin while having a shorter cooldown (as long as there is something to attack).

I’d argue there that Paladin has a lot of alternative abilities that it’d be ok if it had an inferior invuln ability. Not that the job overall is better, but that the paladins invuln can be somewhat worse than other abilities, especially as it has things like clemency or passage of arms as alternative means for defense. Especially because those utility abilities can be used on/with party members.

[Shougun]

I’d argue there that Paladin has a lot of alternative abilities that it’d be ok if it had an inferior invuln ability. Not that the job overall is better, but that the paladins invuln can be somewhat worse than other abilities, especially as it has things like clemency or passage of arms as alternative means for defense. Especially because those utility abilities can be used on/with party members.

Depending on who we're comparing to I don't think I would agree, for example Warrior's skills slide right into place without much impact to damage meanwhile Paladin's do not and are situational tools that generally shouldn't be used except in those specific situations. In this way Warrior's ability to have the same duration at nearly half the cooldown while also relatively easily returning half or more of their HP makes it for no reason, imo, that Paladin's should be inferior, if any reason to that I think you might argue Paladin could justify a minor buff because of that. In most situations of skill or light planning- Warrior's is better. Of course Paladin does have a lot of other raid / situational tools, so I'm not sure I'd actually want to argue a buff, and Paladin's is still easier to use / work with, but if we just narrowed the window specifically on ability to get life back, cost of that, and anti-buster, between Warrior and Paladin I'd argue Paladin is the one that needs buffed not Warrior.

Compared to anything Dark Knight's anti-buster... sure it feels Dark Knight needs all the loves and no one else does.. lol, but to make Paladin's ability inferior- by the amount you suggested.. I feel is still pretty extreme. DRK's TBN doesn't hurt their DPS that much and is pretty powerful and versatile. If you said equal to Paladin's cooldown and dropped them to 1 health but then they could regain half health easily (on their own, while also being invlun), maybe that's closer to fair- but to say two minutes faster cooldown and the job can full heal off their anti-buster.. I don't think that's fair at all. If Paladin uses their move at full health sure they stay at full health but if they use it at quarter health they don't get it back just because they're under guard. Vampiric Hallowed Ground at 2 minutes shorter cooldown is significantly better than Hallowed Ground in many situations and is always better in any situation that the vampiric effect can function (since HG doesn't heal at all, and Paladin would generally have to go out of their way to heal in any meaningful way). Meanwhile the main beast is warrior hiding in the background laughing as we're trying to outpace Paladin as the measuring rod. Imo..

[kaynide]

Depending on who we're comparing to I don't think I would agree, for example Warrior's skills slide right into place without much impact to damage meanwhile Paladin's do not and are situational tools that generally shouldn't be used except in those specific situations. In this way Warrior's ability to have the same duration at nearly half the cooldown while also relatively easily returning half or more of their HP makes it for no reason, imo, that Paladin's should be inferior, if any reason to that I think you might argue Paladin could justify a minor buff because of that. In most situations of skill or light planning- Warrior's is better. Of course Paladin does have a lot of other raid / situational tools, so I'm not sure I'd actually want to argue a buff, and Paladin's is still easier to use / work with, but if we just narrowed the window specifically on ability to get life back, cost of that, and anti-buster, between Warrior and Paladin I'd argue Paladin is the one that needs buffed not Warrior.

Compared to anything Dark Knight's anti-buster... sure it feels Dark Knight needs all the loves and no one else does.. lol, but to make Paladin's ability inferior- by the amount you suggested.. I feel is still pretty extreme. DRK's TBN doesn't hurt their DPS that much and is pretty powerful and versatile. If you said equal to Paladin's cooldown and dropped them to 1 health but then they could regain half health easily (on their own, while also being invlun), maybe that's closer to fair- but to say two minutes faster cooldown and the job can full heal off their anti-buster.. I don't think that's fair at all. If Paladin uses their move at full health sure they stay at full health but if they use it at quarter health they don't get it back just because they're under guard. Vampiric Hallowed Ground at 2 minutes shorter cooldown is significantly better than Hallowed Ground in many situations and is always better in any situation that the vampiric effect can function (since HG doesn't heal at all, and Paladin would generally have to go out of their way to heal in any meaningful way). Meanwhile the main beast is warrior hiding in the background laughing as we're trying to outpace Paladin as the measuring rod. Imo..

I think that’s the way I’d argue it- similar to you. There is probably a better way to balance the ideas, be it recast time or maybe if the buff has some kind of party wide buff.

As is Paladin has a lot of utility that warrior doesn’t, so it’s fine if it’s invuln is slightly less. Like, when we do treasure maps, we never even think to bring a healer because Paladin + any other tank suffices. We probably could get by with 2 of any tank, but Paladin being able to cure bomb our dps when they goof up is a big plus for my casual group..and there really isn’t enough goofing to justify needing a dedicated healer.

And again I think comparing the whole kit is fair; Paladin has a lot of options to defend other members, which could also defend itself..so I think it’s ok if their invuln has that longer cooldown. Or perhaps other jobs invuln triggers some other kind of useful buff like a haste.

Of course tweaks can be made to make it better.

[Shougun]

I think that’s the way I’d argue it- similar to you. There is probably a better way to balance the ideas, be it recast time or maybe if the buff has some kind of party wide buff.

As is Paladin has a lot of utility that warrior doesn’t, so it’s fine if it’s invuln is slightly less. Like, when we do treasure maps, we never even think to bring a healer because Paladin + any other tank suffices. We probably could get by with 2 of any tank, but Paladin being able to cure bomb our dps when they goof up is a big plus for my casual group..and there really isn’t enough goofing to justify needing a dedicated healer.

And again I think comparing the whole kit is fair; Paladin has a lot of options to defend other members, which could also defend itself..so I think it’s ok if their invuln has that longer cooldown. Or perhaps other jobs invuln triggers some other kind of useful buff like a haste.

Of course tweaks can be made to make it better.

Just want to be clear I like the creative back and forth, I was rereading it and had made edits over time to make it sound less upfront no as that wasn't intended and generally I do like the theme idea. I do also feel though that sometimes the sheer ease of use of Paladin's skill makes people overlook the potential technical qualities of Warrior's and leaves me feeling like "guys it doesn't need nerfed and it also isn't always the best- of course it is good though, if anything we need to stop buffing warrior's anti-buster as it's actually REALLY good as long as you've the timing for it". It's the really obvious to work with skill vs the one that's kind of awkward so it's less apparent and so it slips under the radar. Speaking of under the radar I've also seen a lot of people not realize that Warrior's is not only a very short cooldown, but no longer locks them in place, doesn't need a target, and can still immobilize the enemy- it's in the best place it's ever been currently. DRK is certainly just frustrating though lol, and buffs would be welcomed- and you're right values can be tweaked to find the right spot. Getting the concepts out there is more important than trying to perfectly balance for SE.

Like Superboilde seems a little goofy compared to Hallowed Ground until you consider it's also nearly 2 minutes shorter cooldown and GNB has no damage cost oGCD heal. I agree on your comment that Paladin has a lot of tools to just 'make it work' but often those tools cost damage so you really try not to use them until you HAVE to. So if you penalized Paladin too much for their OH MAH GAWD skills where then their average gameplay would be less with less to show for it too such as when everyone is doing their job well they'd just perform worse. I don't think is that ideal lol. Of course other tanks have neat tools that Paladin doesn't have on top of that, so it's not even that bad, like Warrior's self heal is a meme- especially on reddit, so I just don't want to see too much penalization for those things Paladin has in "absolute worst cast scenarios" (since you're ideally not supposed to be using it, if you wanted optimal damage - of course having them is neat and not meaningless, but the amount of 'cost' for such a "are you sure?" tool should be less than one that weaves so freely like an oGCD mechanic).

[CaptainLagbeard]

Yeah.. they really need to make all the invulnerabilities more similar in effect..like no bad points.

Since PLD gets a straight invuln, it could be you drop to 1 hp and can’t go below 1 hp… then you gain massive hp-steal with attacks, ideally healing yourself to max. That’s it, no negatives. Ideally popped when you are about to die anyway, hopefully ending with more hp than you started. Essentially holmgang+hp drain, whereas holmgang locks mobs in place. (Arguably Holmgang should do a little more too, like offer some defense to nearby party members)

Paladin as is, is just incredibly good with its unconditional invuln and clemency…the other tanks need stuff on par.

Well PLD's Invuln's intended "downside" is the longer cooldown, at 7 minutes you likely won't get to use it twice in a single fight in end-game content... But a longer cooldown is hardly comparable to DRK and GNB needing full heals, and WAR with a 4 minute cooldown is an even better Invuln with the downside that you can't move while it's active...

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

WAR with a 4 minute cooldown is an even better Invuln with the downside that you can't move while it's active...

WAR has been able to move with its invuln for a while now. It literally only has a single niche drawback: that its not "full" immunity, meaning you can't cheese debuffs/damage based knockbacks.
Shorter duration? Nope, they extended it to 10s in EW.
Rooted for its use? nope, removed.
Needs a target? nope, removed.

With bloodwhetting & Equil, the fact you can still take damage during it is also irrelevant. Wait until its about to fall off, then hit Equil + bloodwhetting and restore 50% of your HP in 1 GCD for zero danger recovery.

As far as the topic, there is only a single change Living Dead needs, and it requires only the backspace key, no dev brain thinking or coding needed:

Backspace the if statement that kills you. That's it, takes <5seconds to do. Backspace one if statement and Living Dead goes from a plague to an actually usable invuln that has a niche as the 'easiest to time due to being able to free fire it' invuln.