What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Brinne]

I mean, I don't disagree with all that at all. My happy wholesome AU is one where Hermes gets proper medical attention rather than Emet's non-solution of figuratively kicking him upstairs to get him out of a job that emotionally destroyed him, and he slowly recovers and opens up, ending up cooperating against the whole Meteion business (this is also an AU where people are aware of Meteion and what happened, because goddamn that didn't make sense).

But yeah my main beef is that the main reaction I've seen to him is that he's a poor little baby who's the only person with feelings and Ancients totally sucked and were a bunch of meanies.

...Okay so truth be told, I haven't interacted with the fandom outside of this very thread since like, mid December. I honestly just chose to filter out FFXIV social media then because the EW positivity seriously put a damper on my mood (oh no a feedback loop /echo chamber!). Maybe it's changed since then, but that particular reading of Hermes and Ancients really is not my jam.

I really enjoy Hermes, but that response/read to him is very much (much like hating Zenos in a post-EW world) Objectively Wrong!

I understand, though. I mean, I was also honestly in a similar place with the Exarch in Shadowbringers. I liked the character! Couldn't get on board, at all, with fandom takes of him as soft and good and pure-hearted. That guy was cold and his character was most appealing to me in the moments when his being cold was allowed to shine a bit more brightly. I have not actually gone out of my way to look at Hermes fandom specifically, but it being full of, uh, not great takes seems very plausible.

[PawPaw]

I still find it weird that nobody seems to care that their souls aren't whole or that they have fragments of themselves running around on other shards.

I will never understand, at the very least, our own character's complete disinterest in learning more about Azem. Imagine being told you're 9/14 of a god and just being like "Heh heh ok. Stone shiny. I put in pocket and then forget about it". But honestly, I shouldn't be that surprised as our character still sucks at using the Echo even after all this time. Even Zenos calls us out on it.

[Lauront]

I mean, I don't disagree with all that at all. My happy wholesome AU is one where Hermes gets proper medical attention rather than Emet's non-solution of figuratively kicking him upstairs to get him out of a job that emotionally destroyed him, and he slowly recovers and opens up, ending up cooperating against the whole Meteion business (this is also an AU where people are aware of Meteion and what happened, because goddamn that didn't make sense).

But yeah my main beef is that the main reaction I've seen to him is that he's a poor little baby who's the only person with feelings and Ancients totally sucked and were a bunch of meanies. We had a very particular person on this thread like 70 pages back, I still cringe thinking about their take.

...Okay so truth be told, I haven't interacted with the fandom outside of this very thread since like, mid December. I honestly just chose to filter out FFXIV social media then because the EW positivity seriously put a damper on my mood (oh no a feedback loop /echo chamber!). Maybe it's changed since then, but that particular reading of Hermes and Ancients really is not my jam.

It's actually not that bad generally speaking - you do get the odd person who will insist on ignoring all the lore contradicting the supposed "point" of the story, that the ancients were unfeeling automata or that this was some glaring flaw in their society but by and large it's acknowledged that he was a raging hypocrite who even mistreated his own supposedly beloved creation. Likewise, with the Plenty positioned as the rationale for Venat's actions (alongside dynamis manipulation), it is also more broadly acknowledged that their downfall was not due to any inherent flaws of theirs so much as where that pursuit might lead them. There's still plenty of brick walls on places like reddit, who will insist on selectively reading the story and (massively) dropping context to keep their Ascian hate boner alive, but it's improved since SHB, in all honesty. I think the Q&A largely silenced a lot of the more ardent Ascian haters - at least those who grasped the implications of it.

I still find it weird that nobody seems to care that their souls aren't whole or that they have fragments of themselves running around on other shards.

I don't get it, either.

[Rulakir]

I associate "adventures" with having to check in with Momodi or the Levemete guy so they can tell me who needs a new chore completed. Hard to get hype for what gives me ARR 2.0 vibes but as so many have already said, we shall see.

Same. I'm dreading a potential slow burning, world/story building 'arc' similar to ARR because I hated ARR. Combined with being disappointed with EW, I need something more.

Currently watching my favorite streamer who has just started EW and I'm genuinely curious what he'll think by the end.

Is it Preach? I'm curious what he's going to say. I've been occasionally checking in on Pyromancer. I don't like watching him, but as a lore guy (and Emet fan) I want to see what his reaction is to Elpis and Venat. The problem with streamers is they're paid to entertain and griping about the story isn't going to amass an audience, especially in this community. Having said that, Zepla's reactions during her playthrough were almost identical to mine. She was pissed off at the end of Elpis, cried when Emet & Hythlodaeus showed up in Ultima Thule, and commented about the writers not being done twisting the knife.

[PawPaw]

Is it Preach? I'm curious what he's going to say. I've been occasionally checking in on Pyromancer. I don't like watching him, but as a lore guy (and Emet fan) I want to see what his reaction is to Elpis and Venat. The problem with streamers is they're paid to entertain and griping about the story isn't going to amass an audience, especially in this community. Having said that, Zepla's reactions during her playthrough were almost identical to mine. She was pissed off at the end of Elpis, cried when Emet & Hythlodaeus showed up in Ultima Thule, and commented about the writers not being done twisting the knife.

It is! He's been my favorite of the streamers mostly because he hasn't been afraid to say that he doesn't like something when he doesn't like it. Plus he's pretty entertaining regardless of whether I agree with his take or not. I know now from watching him for a while that he is not a fan of what he feels are cheesy, contrived plot points and am just wanting to see how he'll feel about the idea of fighting an embodiment of despair and the power of friendship. You know he likes a dark story? He's just hyping himself up for what he feels will be dark and it's just...not. Venat will be a tossup. I know he loves Emet and will love Hythlodaeus but he is sort of stupid about any female character who has any kind of sass, so I think he'll let her pass. Not sure how he'll feel about Hermes either and feel like he's not going to like Meteion, either as a character or the last minute "Big Bad" but...we'll have to wait and see. Should be entertaining no matter what.

I'm not a Pyro fan but I may check in when he gets to that part of the game. So far his reactions have been as over-the-top as I expected so I'm not sure how he'll react to Elpis and co. To be fair, on my first playthrough I was totally hoodwinked as well and only gained clarity with time and lots of thought. Haven't seen Zepla's playthrough of that part, I'll put it on my queue and watch when I can.

[Theodric]

Admittedly I have a hard time taking many streamers seriously because many seem to deliberately hold back their true opinions and/or play to what their audience expects of them. It's the problem with individuals who stand to make money from something. Very few even bother to engage with the official forum, either, which I find to be weird since it's a lot more civil than either Twitter or Reddit.

As it stands, I don't think it's very rewarding for anyone to even bother investing time being a lore streamer these days. It used to be the case where the story could be reasonably foreshadowed by plot threads seeded in previous expansions but now it seems the new direction is to just have something completely random and unexpected happen in order to 'subvert expectations'.

[Rulakir]

In Hermes's case, I legitimately think the presented answer is "it's mostly him." Hermes is presented to us for the bulk of his screentime as Amon for a reason. He denies it for a long time, until the end where Amon does obviously speak as Hermes, and his Amon persona as a part of Hermes's story - but they are absolutely at core the same person, filled with bitterness and contempt at the society and people around them, and looking to the outside for an "answer" to his doubts he can shove in their faces.

I agree with all of this, but I was still left with the impression that we were supposed to sympathize with him and that he wasn't any worse than any of the other Ascians/Ancients. I'm not able to look it up at the moment, but I got the same impression when Yoshi-P was comparing Hermes and Venat in the LL.

It would've helped had he been omitted from the credits walk and post credit art, but also the Ultima Thule scene were Meteion collapses into the Elpis flowers with the Hermes speech I was just like, WTF, am I supposed to feel bad for the two beings responsible for almost destroying the universe right now, seriously?!

[Teraq]

I agree with all of this, but I was still left with the impression that we were supposed to sympathize with him and that he wasn't any worse than any of the other Ascians/Ancients. I'm not able to look it up at the moment, but I got the same impression when Yoshi-P was comparing Hermes and Venat in the LL.

It would've helped had he been omitted from the credits walk and post credit art, but also the Ultima Thule scene were Meteion collapses into the Elpis flowers with the Hermes speech I was just like, WTF, am I supposed to feel bad for the two beings responsible for almost destroying the universe right now, seriously?!

Have you replayed through MSQ? I helped a friend with Zodiark and then watched the subsequent scene with him and... the please-feel-bad-for-him! monologue was already awkward the first time through, but watching it again and recognizing the sad piano tune as the nighttime Elpis BGM just added an entirely new layer of cringe.

[EaraGrace]

Zepla was pretty positive towards Hydaelyn and Venat after Elpis tho, as has been pretty much all the streamers and content creators I’ve seen.

[PawPaw]

But yeah my main beef is that the main reaction I've seen to him is that he's a poor little baby who's the only person with feelings and Ancients totally sucked and were a bunch of meanies. We had a very particular person on this thread like 70 pages back, I still cringe thinking about their take.

Ah, I see you also Twitter and no, it hasn't changed. The amount of art and fanfic I've seen on there depicting him as some uwu, gentle, misunderstood Romeo has been something else .