What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[myahele]

I asked before but i’ll ask again because i never got an answer. Outside of Ultima Thule, what did Yshtola do of any substance this entire expansion. Can’t think of a damn thing outside of reading books.

They need her to sell products like dolls and a guitar even if Thancred would have been a better choice being a bard and all.

[EaraGrace]

Ok, back from that brief vacation =_= let's see...

In that case let's also stay away from the Pandora's box that is estimating when the Final Days happened.

Sure.

What I'm getting from all of this is that yes, he pointed out at the connection with those celestial currents and from there they started working on what they believed to be a solution, which was ultimately the summoning of Zodiark, and that he helped a big deal with all that. BUT we know better.

They barely managed to "patch things up", not to find a definitive solution because they never found the root of the problem. I'm not trying to argue if he was or not instrumental in that arguably subpar solution. The part that's relevant is if Venat had told them what the hell was up they could have come up with other solutions focused on the concrete thing they now know for certain to be the cause and those solutions wouldn't need HIM and ONLY HIM to spearhead them.

Any solution would require Zodiarks summoning though! The Ancients did not have millennia to gather the requisite aether needed to send anything to Ultima Thule. So even if you did create a counter, you’d still need Zodiarks protection to buy yourself time. Which would be compromised without Hermes. If a single aspect of Zodiark is different due to Hermes lack of involvement, the whole effort could fail right then and there.

But how do you think the light affects those flowers? The flower catches the light, a chemical reaction occurs which alters the color of its pigments. Reactions absorb or free energy. At least that's how it happens in the real world. In this fantasy world? Who knows. But considering how they seemed to play by conservation of energies with aether in the lore (at least before they introduced dynamis) I don't expect it to be different, also considering Hermes wanted to use it as an energy source. He didn't just want Meteion to interact with it, he wanted it to fuel her space travels.

All of what you said points to the flowers not controlling dynamis but reacting to it yes? Which is the point, it doesn’t possess a will, thus it doesn’t control dynamis.

Yes and her space travels required her to consciously control dynamis to utilize it.

Maybe we're understanding "negate" in different ways here. I'm understanding it as "it blocks the effects of the other" and not as "they're polar opposite forces cancelling each other". Because if it was opposites cancelling it makes no sense that she wouldn't have been able to cancel out the aether of a single ancient nor get past Zodiark's barrier in all these years.

Etheirys is noted to be especially aetherically dense and Meteions needs time to gather dynamis. Canceling out any Ancient would require not just piercing through their dense soul, but piercing through the stars aetheric currents. It’s the difference between getting uv rays from the sun and blasting someone with a direct stream.

If she didn't make use of that "dynamis is more abundant than aether" advantage it makes even less sense for her to be a threat and it makes it more probable the ancients would have triumphed if they knew they had to look for her.

She didn’t have control of all dynamis everywhere from the start. Else we would’ve lost the moment she escaped.

Use dynamis for the space travel, use aether for the barrier. And worst come to worst there was enough aether for Zodiark's barrier, just deploy it around her and not Etheirys. And also repeating myself from earlier, Zenos only needed mere scraps from the mothercrystal for the same travel (and still had enough reserves for our rematch afterwards). Guess our teeny-tiny toy boat wasn't really that good and space travel was easier than they sold it?

He actually is using dynamis in our fight afterwards but that’s besides the point. We don’t know how much aether was left in the crystal, so let’s be generous and say you could shave off six millennia. Doesn’t change much does it.

No but there was an Elidibus to balance forces if they tipped too far into one direction. I think I recall he "created heroes" through history.

And what an amazing job he did.

...Yes, if you're banking into time travel to fix things and you're not the time traveler you're not expecting your current consciousness and memories to be part of that altered timeline.

Precisely why it’s as great example of creating a better tomorrow. You’re past has already gone by, you can’t go back and change that for yourself, but another you can have a brighter future.

[Lauront]

The only scion interaction I enjoy in EW is the bros/dudes squad; which is thancred, urianger, and estinien (it's AL plus if your WoL is male too). Thancred and urianger already got the "good friends" dynamics, and estinien is the "awkward guy". I also like how out of everyone, both thancred and estinien are the more pragmatic and realistic, which is way more interesting than idealistic one like g'raha and the twins (though at least alphinaud is better than alisae in this regard).

*hmm, I think y'sthola is supposed to be pragmatic too, but honestly she's too bland and I don't really get the whole "pragmatic" vibe from her.

I think the start of thavnair is the only time I genuinely amused by the comedy. Feels natural.

Yeah I enjoy the bro squad much better too. I sort of respect the fact that Y'shtola will, at least on occasion, use her noodle but in EW she really did not shine for me, and she didn't do much of that, either. People mock some of the Ascians for referring to Zodiark as the one true god, but between Hydaelyn referring to herself as a "supreme deity" and Y'shtola referring to her as an "all-powerful being", perhaps let's not be too critical on that front...

Can't wait to be told "monarchy is bad! democracy is the best!" all over again or to face another "I want to destroy the world because I am sad" stories all over again. At least if FFXVI turns out to be decent I can see myself spending a whole lot of time over in that fandom should the need arise for me to take a break from FFXIV if they take things in the wrong direction in 7.0.

Ugh, I can't wait. Especially if it consists of more amateurish political philosophy rants delivered by wunderkind Alphinaud. I do hope they avoid that direction. It'll just end up grating on my nerves further, especially if compounded by them messing up Pandaemonium story-wise for me (e.g. more Lahabrea bad rubbish.)

[Rulakir]

Fanfest Q&A with Yoshida and battle designer Nakagawa.

Q. What is the most important thing to think about in making FF14’s world and story?

Yoshida: As the director, astonishment and empathy are the most important things to me. The scenario is made so there are elements where it’s good to think about our own society. We try not to make perfect characters, and we try to accept different ways of thinking.

Not sure what to think of this since I would say certain elements of EW are contrary to it.

Also:

Q. How is it decided which NPCs to make into minions? Are there plans to make minions of villainous characters?

Yoshida: Monster-style minions are left to the device of the responsible team, as for NPC minions, they are all checked in order to avoid spoilers. NPC minions are only made when their character has finished their role, so please think that if a character doesn’t have a minion yet they still have a role to play.

Still no Emet, Hythlodaeus, or Zenos minions, so guess they're all returning then! (Mildly joking here, I know it's hard to tell in text, but there's a lot of people speculating who will be coming back now based on them not having a minion yet.)

[Theodric]

I'm indifferent to Y'shtola. The main thing that annoys me is the way she is pushed as the mascot of the game when it really should just be the 'Derplander' who serves as such. Other than that, the multiple fake deaths are grating but...she doesn't annoy me as much as some of the other Scions. I do, however, think she's pretty hypocritical in regards to her behaviour in the Steppes.

Insulting the proud Xaela doesn't really align with her criticism of Merlwyb for looking down upon the Beast Tribes. Though, as if often the case, the Scions seem to frequently engage in acts that they're eager to judge others for only for it to be excused as perfectly acceptable when they themselves partake of it.

It's why I'm more than a little wary of the supposed shift in a narrative about 'values' since so far, the 'values' embraced in what is meant to be a fictional fantasy setting perfectly aligns with whatever is the safest, most inoffensive option possible. Which is pretty boring to me.

[Lauront]

Can you even blame Asahi for saying to the Scions that he never wants to see them again? At least he gets his wish.

[Theodric]

Can you even blame Asahi for saying to the Scions that he never wants to see them again? At least he gets his wish.

I don't blame him at all. As much as I like some of the Scions, none of them are necessary for me to enjoy FFXIV and most have overstayed their welcome. I found myself pleased when the Scions were disbanded as an organisation and that relief lasted all of five seconds before the game telegraphed with as much subtlety as a hammer to the face that the Scion's aren't actually disbanding and they're totally sticking around for future appearances.

[Sicno]

Any solution would require Zodiarks summoning though! The Ancients did not have millennia to gather the requisite aether needed to send anything to Ultima Thule. So even if you did create a counter, you’d still need Zodiarks protection to buy yourself time. Which would be compromised without Hermes. If a single aspect of Zodiark is different due to Hermes lack of involvement, the whole effort could fail right then and there.

Zodiark and the reinforcement of the celestial currents was the best blind solution they could come up with without knowing the core of the issue. It was a giant flex tape. Catering directly to dynamis may have let them come up with better ways of dealing with it that could have been more energy efficient, more sustainable, etc. and requiring less sacrifice. Speaking of sacrifice, having the aether of their own creations available before they got transformed by Meteion would have helped too.

But more importantly, these "possible solutions" I mentioned are just examples of "they could have tried stuff". I don't mean them to be perfect, I don't mean the ancients would have succeeded with a 100% chance, but that they could have at least TRIED something different. But no, instead Venat just sat on her high horse, let them fail the way she already knew they would fail and then pulled her act. That's the point you're missing.

All of what you said points to the flowers not controlling dynamis but reacting to it yes? Which is the point, it doesn’t possess a will, thus it doesn’t control dynamis.

Yes and her space travels required her to consciously control dynamis to utilize it.

You're just not getting that a refrigerator doesn't need an AI to consume electricity.

Etheirys is noted to be especially aetherically dense and Meteions needs time to gather dynamis. Canceling out any Ancient would require not just piercing through their dense soul, but piercing through the stars aetheric currents. It’s the difference between getting uv rays from the sun and blasting someone with a direct stream.

...But the Final Days happened first on the regions where the celestial currents were stagnating, without their protection. And she still couldn't transform an ancient. "B-but she didn't have access to enough dynamis yet to unmake them!" So she was still weak enough then? So send a space mission to beat her. If they had started on it right after leaving Ktisis she wouldn't have that much of a lead. Hell, why not make a Zodiark who would have traveled like Zenos did, beaten the hell outta her, come back and then restore the ancients from him? Zodiark's mission would be complete, he wouldn't be needed to remain like our shielding Zodiark did so they wouldn't need new life to take their place.

See, the more you think about it the more possibilites arise other than "let's flex tape the celestial currents".

He actually is using dynamis in our fight afterwards but that’s besides the point. We don’t know how much aether was left in the crystal, so let’s be generous and say you could shave off six millennia. Doesn’t change much does it.

Oh right, my bad. I try to not think too much about that fight so I completely forgot that part. But like you said, that's besides the point. Don't forget Hydaelyn was highly taxed with "containing" Zodiark, so that limited how much aether she could divert to the mothercrystal. So don't take how long it took her as a measure of anything. Besides, even accounting for her primal form, she's just 1 ancient. Put all ancients together to speed up the process.

And what an amazing job he did.

Yeah, from what I recall Mitron and Loghrif turning into Eden (and causing the flood of light) was an accident and not part of their original plan. Still, Elidibus was trying to fix it by bringing Ardbert and company and cause another calamity before it was too late. It was us who prevented that calamity from happening before Minfilia traveled to stop the flood.

Precisely why it’s as great example of creating a better tomorrow. You’re past has already gone by, you can’t go back and change that for yourself, but another you can have a brighter future.

Tell that to G'raha, the architect of everything that happened in SHB.

[Kozh]

Fanfest Q&A with Yoshida and battle designer Nakagawa.

Oh god, lol. "Accept different ways of thinking", unless it's the antagonist's way of thinking. Because god forbid the WoL or the Scions made "evil" decision. Seriously, I hate how the story and the lore seems to bend over backwards a lot of time to either justify our actions, or so that we don't have to take the "lesser evil" path. Just like how in 5.3 apparently all the WoLs we fight are only projection of their will, in an expansion sold as "we are the villain".

"B-but she didn't have access to enough dynamis yet to unmake them!" So she was still weak enough then? So send a space mission to beat her. If they had started on it right after leaving Ktisis she wouldn't have that much of a lead. Hell, why not make a Zodiark who would have traveled like Zenos did, beaten the hell outta her, come back and then restore the ancients from him? Zodiark's mission would be complete, he wouldn't be needed to remain like our shielding Zodiark did so they wouldn't need new life to take their place.

This is what I've been thinking too. If Zodiark is a dnd character, he would be one who put 9 stats into defense and 1 into offense, considering his main thing is making a planet-size barrier and replenish the land's aether. If the Ancients already knew about the root of their problem, they could have make Zodiark more focused on offense (like hydaelyn). He could fly fly into Ultima Thule and blast meteion with concentrated aether, since she won't be as strong as her current version we fought. Besides, as Lauront had mentioned before, the dynamis:aether ratio in space isn't like 99:1, but 2:1 (though technically it's 6:4). That means their fighting chance isn't 0%.

Sure, summoning Zodiark still requires massive sacrifice, but that's proof that they have the strength to resist despair.

[anhaato]

Going into Endwalker I was SO stoked at the possibility that the story would go the direction of Zodiark becoming a useful ally because he, himself, is not evil. I wanted so badly for him to reach out to us and offer to hold off the final days for us to solve the root cause, and I wanted that root cause to be something psychological or intangible. Then, at the very end, Hydaelyn and Zodiark both combine powers and sacrifice themselves to deliver the final blow and leave behind a brighter tomorrow for the people they know they no longer have to look after. I have a feeling a lot of people were expecting something like this, and it would've been HYPE. But Ishikawa, oh Ishikawa, it seems she's learned since Shadowbringers to go liberally apply shock value. Every story beat in the game was "you thought THAT was crazy, wait until you see THIS!" and while it got me excited in the moment, reflecting upon what just happened always made me feel more disappointed. "This story is so huge that you have to kill Zodiark AS THE FIRST TRIAL!!!!!" Nah what you mean to say is that you made him a complete and utter disappointment. The god of the one true enemy we've had these past 11 years, gone in the first few levels of the grand finale expansion. Hardly even mentioned again.

As for Hydaelyn, while I felt her arc was the most compelling part of the story along with the sundering scene, at the end she wasn't all that useful either. Like, yippee, she gave us a tracking device and enhanced the friend-summoning magic we already had since 5.3, now she's dead. Cool. It really didn't have to end that way. There's one thing I like to say a lot when it comes to critiquing these kinds of stories and it's that being predictable isn't (always) a bad thing. Like, sure, if the entire story is predictable then it becomes boring. But if you're making up some random BS in the story just to avoid doing what we think you'll do then it starts getting jank. And the result of all of that was... the two most important primals in the game being diminished to a catalyst and a GPS. Also now we have a bootstrap paradox to answer every question ever. "Why did this happen back then?" oh because we told them to do it! I'll never come to love the Elpis arc the way so many others did. Just so, so lame.

Imagine if we had gone to the moon to entreat with Zodiark, awaken him and ask for his help to forestall the calamity again. Then we could've gotten an answer from him, not his husk of a body taken over by Damn Daniel, I mean He Himself. Imagine if we hadn't seen Hydaelyn's true form until the very end, right as she does a grand sacrifice to kill the manifestation of the despair which causes the final days. She and Zodiark unite for a killing blow, and after that happens, she speaks to us in the form of a massive aetherial being, too massive for us to comprehend, and tells us about the future of the world she's leaving behind for us, and then finally dissipates. Predictable? Definitely. Satisfying? Oh boy would it have been.