What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Sicno]

Ok, back from that brief vacation =_= let's see...

Oh god lets not open this pandoras box of asking when Pandaemonium occurs. We don't know and thats intended, arguing either way is its own whole dialogue tree.

In that case let's also stay away from the Pandora's box that is estimating when the Final Days happened.

First, were talking about the celestial aether currents, not dynamis. We don't need to get sidetracked again.

Lets ask the Ancients whether Hermes was integral then shall we.

Now only one of them says, explicitly, the words “we cannot replace him” or “we can’t do this without him,” but I think we can see where the evidence points.

What I'm getting from all of this is that yes, he pointed out at the connection with those celestial currents and from there they started working on what they believed to be a solution, which was ultimately the summoning of Zodiark, and that he helped a big deal with all that. BUT we know better.

They barely managed to "patch things up", not to find a definitive solution because they never found the root of the problem. I'm not trying to argue if he was or not instrumental in that arguably subpar solution. The part that's relevant is if Venat had told them what the hell was up they could have come up with other solutions focused on the concrete thing they now know for certain to be the cause and those solutions wouldn't need HIM and ONLY HIM to spearhead them.

The Elpis flower does not have a will, I think that is the only thing I agree with here.
The flower itself only reacts to dynamis, it does not manipulate it. The only things capable of effecting dynamis that we have seen are beings with a conscious will. In Hermes words it simply "reacts by altering its color and vibrancy" as it is "sensitive to the prevailing emotion in the vicinity." A real life analogy to this would be flowers that change color in response to light. Those flowers do not manipulate light of course, they simply react to its presence.

But how do you think the light affects those flowers? The flower catches the light, a chemical reaction occurs which alters the color of its pigments. Reactions absorb or free energy. At least that's how it happens in the real world. In this fantasy world? Who knows. But considering how they seemed to play by conservation of energies with aether in the lore (at least before they introduced dynamis) I don't expect it to be different, also considering Hermes wanted to use it as an energy source. He didn't just want Meteion to interact with it, he wanted it to fuel her space travels.

Quoting Hermes again, "aether negates dynamis." The transformation is not what causes the aether to dissipate, but the very act of coming into contact with dynamis.

Maybe we're understanding "negate" in different ways here. I'm understanding it as "it blocks the effects of the other" and not as "they're polar opposite forces cancelling each other". Because if it was opposites cancelling it makes no sense that she wouldn't have been able to cancel out the aether of a single ancient nor get past Zodiark's barrier in all these years.

She didn't have all the dynamis in existence, she had a portion of it. The whole idea of the moon lifeboat is reliant on that fact, as well as any space travel for that matter.

If she didn't make use of that "dynamis is more abundant than aether" advantage it makes even less sense for her to be a threat and it makes it more probable the ancients would have triumphed if they knew they had to look for her.

Once again, there simply was not enough aether on Etheirys to do so. The Mothercrystal took millennia to form, and it only got us there. All other plans run into the same problems we already discussing above.

Use dynamis for the space travel, use aether for the barrier. And worst come to worst there was enough aether for Zodiark's barrier, just deploy it around her and not Etheirys. And also repeating myself from earlier, Zenos only needed mere scraps from the mothercrystal for the same travel (and still had enough reserves for our rematch afterwards). Guess our teeny-tiny toy boat wasn't really that good and space travel was easier than they sold it?

And nearly failed again with the First if not for Minfilia's unplanned sacrifice. And whether the Ascians were planning to keep a handful around to repopulate means little to those who weathered the tragedies and still kept moving forward. Its not as if Emet was down there telling them its not actually a world ending calamity.

No but there was an Elidibus to balance forces if they tipped too far into one direction. I think I recall he "created heroes" through history.

The following morning, the hour of his departure came at last. We stood upon the precipice of an unknown future, contemplating the promise of a tomorrow we would never see. Yet still we prayed. That our sacrifices had indeed sown the seeds of a better tomorrow. That at journey’s end, our departing friend might reap that joyous harvest too. We prayed as the Crystal Tower stirred to life, and vanished in a blinding flash of light.

...Yes, if you're banking into time travel to fix things and you're not the time traveler you're not expecting your current consciousness and memories to be part of that altered timeline.

[EaraGrace]

Ok, back from that brief vacation =_= let's see...

In that case let's also stay away from the Pandora's box that is estimating when the Final Days happened.

Sure.

What I'm getting from all of this is that yes, he pointed out at the connection with those celestial currents and from there they started working on what they believed to be a solution, which was ultimately the summoning of Zodiark, and that he helped a big deal with all that. BUT we know better.

They barely managed to "patch things up", not to find a definitive solution because they never found the root of the problem. I'm not trying to argue if he was or not instrumental in that arguably subpar solution. The part that's relevant is if Venat had told them what the hell was up they could have come up with other solutions focused on the concrete thing they now know for certain to be the cause and those solutions wouldn't need HIM and ONLY HIM to spearhead them.

Any solution would require Zodiarks summoning though! The Ancients did not have millennia to gather the requisite aether needed to send anything to Ultima Thule. So even if you did create a counter, you’d still need Zodiarks protection to buy yourself time. Which would be compromised without Hermes. If a single aspect of Zodiark is different due to Hermes lack of involvement, the whole effort could fail right then and there.

But how do you think the light affects those flowers? The flower catches the light, a chemical reaction occurs which alters the color of its pigments. Reactions absorb or free energy. At least that's how it happens in the real world. In this fantasy world? Who knows. But considering how they seemed to play by conservation of energies with aether in the lore (at least before they introduced dynamis) I don't expect it to be different, also considering Hermes wanted to use it as an energy source. He didn't just want Meteion to interact with it, he wanted it to fuel her space travels.

All of what you said points to the flowers not controlling dynamis but reacting to it yes? Which is the point, it doesn’t possess a will, thus it doesn’t control dynamis.

Yes and her space travels required her to consciously control dynamis to utilize it.

Maybe we're understanding "negate" in different ways here. I'm understanding it as "it blocks the effects of the other" and not as "they're polar opposite forces cancelling each other". Because if it was opposites cancelling it makes no sense that she wouldn't have been able to cancel out the aether of a single ancient nor get past Zodiark's barrier in all these years.

Etheirys is noted to be especially aetherically dense and Meteions needs time to gather dynamis. Canceling out any Ancient would require not just piercing through their dense soul, but piercing through the stars aetheric currents. It’s the difference between getting uv rays from the sun and blasting someone with a direct stream.

If she didn't make use of that "dynamis is more abundant than aether" advantage it makes even less sense for her to be a threat and it makes it more probable the ancients would have triumphed if they knew they had to look for her.

She didn’t have control of all dynamis everywhere from the start. Else we would’ve lost the moment she escaped.

Use dynamis for the space travel, use aether for the barrier. And worst come to worst there was enough aether for Zodiark's barrier, just deploy it around her and not Etheirys. And also repeating myself from earlier, Zenos only needed mere scraps from the mothercrystal for the same travel (and still had enough reserves for our rematch afterwards). Guess our teeny-tiny toy boat wasn't really that good and space travel was easier than they sold it?

He actually is using dynamis in our fight afterwards but that’s besides the point. We don’t know how much aether was left in the crystal, so let’s be generous and say you could shave off six millennia. Doesn’t change much does it.

No but there was an Elidibus to balance forces if they tipped too far into one direction. I think I recall he "created heroes" through history.

And what an amazing job he did.

...Yes, if you're banking into time travel to fix things and you're not the time traveler you're not expecting your current consciousness and memories to be part of that altered timeline.

Precisely why it’s as great example of creating a better tomorrow. You’re past has already gone by, you can’t go back and change that for yourself, but another you can have a brighter future.

[Sicno]

Any solution would require Zodiarks summoning though! The Ancients did not have millennia to gather the requisite aether needed to send anything to Ultima Thule. So even if you did create a counter, you’d still need Zodiarks protection to buy yourself time. Which would be compromised without Hermes. If a single aspect of Zodiark is different due to Hermes lack of involvement, the whole effort could fail right then and there.

Zodiark and the reinforcement of the celestial currents was the best blind solution they could come up with without knowing the core of the issue. It was a giant flex tape. Catering directly to dynamis may have let them come up with better ways of dealing with it that could have been more energy efficient, more sustainable, etc. and requiring less sacrifice. Speaking of sacrifice, having the aether of their own creations available before they got transformed by Meteion would have helped too.

But more importantly, these "possible solutions" I mentioned are just examples of "they could have tried stuff". I don't mean them to be perfect, I don't mean the ancients would have succeeded with a 100% chance, but that they could have at least TRIED something different. But no, instead Venat just sat on her high horse, let them fail the way she already knew they would fail and then pulled her act. That's the point you're missing.

All of what you said points to the flowers not controlling dynamis but reacting to it yes? Which is the point, it doesn’t possess a will, thus it doesn’t control dynamis.

Yes and her space travels required her to consciously control dynamis to utilize it.

You're just not getting that a refrigerator doesn't need an AI to consume electricity.

Etheirys is noted to be especially aetherically dense and Meteions needs time to gather dynamis. Canceling out any Ancient would require not just piercing through their dense soul, but piercing through the stars aetheric currents. It’s the difference between getting uv rays from the sun and blasting someone with a direct stream.

...But the Final Days happened first on the regions where the celestial currents were stagnating, without their protection. And she still couldn't transform an ancient. "B-but she didn't have access to enough dynamis yet to unmake them!" So she was still weak enough then? So send a space mission to beat her. If they had started on it right after leaving Ktisis she wouldn't have that much of a lead. Hell, why not make a Zodiark who would have traveled like Zenos did, beaten the hell outta her, come back and then restore the ancients from him? Zodiark's mission would be complete, he wouldn't be needed to remain like our shielding Zodiark did so they wouldn't need new life to take their place.

See, the more you think about it the more possibilites arise other than "let's flex tape the celestial currents".

He actually is using dynamis in our fight afterwards but that’s besides the point. We don’t know how much aether was left in the crystal, so let’s be generous and say you could shave off six millennia. Doesn’t change much does it.

Oh right, my bad. I try to not think too much about that fight so I completely forgot that part. But like you said, that's besides the point. Don't forget Hydaelyn was highly taxed with "containing" Zodiark, so that limited how much aether she could divert to the mothercrystal. So don't take how long it took her as a measure of anything. Besides, even accounting for her primal form, she's just 1 ancient. Put all ancients together to speed up the process.

And what an amazing job he did.

Yeah, from what I recall Mitron and Loghrif turning into Eden (and causing the flood of light) was an accident and not part of their original plan. Still, Elidibus was trying to fix it by bringing Ardbert and company and cause another calamity before it was too late. It was us who prevented that calamity from happening before Minfilia traveled to stop the flood.

Precisely why it’s as great example of creating a better tomorrow. You’re past has already gone by, you can’t go back and change that for yourself, but another you can have a brighter future.

Tell that to G'raha, the architect of everything that happened in SHB.

[Kozh]

Fanfest Q&A with Yoshida and battle designer Nakagawa.

Oh god, lol. "Accept different ways of thinking", unless it's the antagonist's way of thinking. Because god forbid the WoL or the Scions made "evil" decision. Seriously, I hate how the story and the lore seems to bend over backwards a lot of time to either justify our actions, or so that we don't have to take the "lesser evil" path. Just like how in 5.3 apparently all the WoLs we fight are only projection of their will, in an expansion sold as "we are the villain".

"B-but she didn't have access to enough dynamis yet to unmake them!" So she was still weak enough then? So send a space mission to beat her. If they had started on it right after leaving Ktisis she wouldn't have that much of a lead. Hell, why not make a Zodiark who would have traveled like Zenos did, beaten the hell outta her, come back and then restore the ancients from him? Zodiark's mission would be complete, he wouldn't be needed to remain like our shielding Zodiark did so they wouldn't need new life to take their place.

This is what I've been thinking too. If Zodiark is a dnd character, he would be one who put 9 stats into defense and 1 into offense, considering his main thing is making a planet-size barrier and replenish the land's aether. If the Ancients already knew about the root of their problem, they could have make Zodiark more focused on offense (like hydaelyn). He could fly fly into Ultima Thule and blast meteion with concentrated aether, since she won't be as strong as her current version we fought. Besides, as Lauront had mentioned before, the dynamis:aether ratio in space isn't like 99:1, but 2:1 (though technically it's 6:4). That means their fighting chance isn't 0%.

Sure, summoning Zodiark still requires massive sacrifice, but that's proof that they have the strength to resist despair.

[Lauront]

Fanfest Q&A with Yoshida and battle designer Nakagawa.

Oh god, lol. "Accept different ways of thinking", unless it's the antagonist's way of thinking. Because god forbid the WoL or the Scions made "evil" decision. Seriously, I hate how the story and the lore seems to bend over backwards a lot of time to either justify our actions, or so that we don't have to take the "lesser evil" path. Just like how in 5.3 apparently all the WoLs we fight are only projection of their will, in an expansion sold as "we are the villain".

It was very disappointing to me. And the linguistic tricks about becoming the WoD. Very meh. Not what I had hoped for.

This is what I've been thinking too. If Zodiark is a dnd character, he would be one who put 9 stats into defense and 1 into offense, considering his main thing is making a planet-size barrier and replenish the land's aether. If the Ancients already knew about the root of their problem, they could have make Zodiark more focused on offense (like hydaelyn). He could fly fly into Ultima Thule and blast meteion with concentrated aether, since she won't be as strong as her current version we fought. Besides, as Lauront had mentioned before, the dynamis:aether ratio in space isn't like 99:1, but 2:1 (though technically it's 6:4). That means their fighting chance isn't 0%.

Sure, summoning Zodiark still requires massive sacrifice, but that's proof that they have the strength to resist despair.

TBH, Zodiark is built to restore the laws of the star, so I suspect he can make very flexible use of his powers. A lot of it was channelled into providing a barrier to the star, that somehow remained even while he is imprisoned, suggesting his mere existence powered it. Whatever her focus, she could not defeat him without dragging the whole star into it (he stood in the way of her wiping out her people through sundering them), and this was without his heart even. Maybe she struggled with the platform mechanic, who knows. :`) We only got a glimpse of a weakened Zodiark driven by a suicidal lunatic. In any case, they had plenty of time to experiment with various techniques and methods (including selective and consensual sundering of a handful of their own) and in the end Venat did little to prepare the sundered to wield dynamis other than sundering way in excess what was needed to wield it. They didn't even know what it was until the last minute. So the idea that an ingenious civilisation that the ancients could not devise a method to deal with it, armed with the knowledge of what it was, is fanciful to me and the lore certainly hasn't even been written so as to close it off as possibilities, contrary to the protestations of some. It's probably why the time shenanigans were thrown in, to distract attention from that and remove those options in the story we got from consideration but without removing them outright as possibilities had things gone a bit differently.

But the option of creating purely offence focused primals, especially once the star was capable of producing aether once more, is there, and we saw the impressive use Elidibus could make of even a bit of primal/prayer power in SoS.