Will Beastmaster appear in any Endwalker content patches?

[jon041065]

Expansion of the companion system gets a yes please from me. Another limited job however is a no thanks.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

I do a lot of Min-ilvl/No Echo runs, with both old-timers and sprouts looking to engage in old content without face-rolling it at max level unsync (yes, a lot of MINE content is easier now than those fights were at launch, but there's no outright ignoring mechanics like there is in unsync).

BLU is immensely fun to do that content with. Especially being able to help carry sprouts with a "toolbox" loadout that can swap role mid-fight if needed. Or just the massive rDPS DPS-BLU brings at sync'd 70 and lower, if I've got a party that can't meet DPS checks. I find BLU's "15 seconds per 2 minute burst, filler and oGCD priorities thereafter" to be interesting enough as a rotation (if it's good enough for DRK...). If there were more slots in a given loadout, a DPS-focused BLU could actually become a DoT build on top of that, since several 220 fillers have partial DoT's w/ low duration that become a DPS gain with any degree of spellspeed.

Contorting BLU into the paradigm of a standard FF14 caster would completely destroy everything I hold dear about the job. I never want to see that happen. I would be glad to see more limited jobs (e.g., BST) if they, too, provide me with capabilities that break the homogeneous mold of 14's full job design.

About the best compromise I can actually see happening is all limited jobs being brought up to level cap during the X.55 patch. Still limited, but able to play in the deep end of the PF pool for a bit before the next expansion. I think it highly improbable that the development team would invest the time in creating and balancing a "full" and "limited" version of one job simultaneously. Nor could they be combined into a "you must be this high to ride this as a full job,"; just think about what would happen if a max lvl BLU queued leveling roulette and wound up in Sastasha.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Issues with your suggestion:
1. Restricting a standard job behind side content is dumb and they would and should never do that. Making the job entirely side content is something else.
2. The issue is not about removing access to MC (although gutting this version would inadvertently lead to that), but more that this version of BLU is only fun when it can customize your build using bizarre and broken spells. All of which would not be possible if it were to do max level content. Why would anyone play BLU if it can't do Ram's Voice + Ultravibration or blowing themselves up at any given moment? I guess the people that would put more emphasis on the job label than anything else.
3. No one cares if you partake in a piece of content or not. Play it or not, whatever floats your boat. You don't see me typing that they should abandon Ultimate for more exploratory content. Even though I don't do or care for Ultimate and make literally 0 use of the content (along with the vast majority of the player base).

This I agree with.

I don't understand why people think that a BLU with a standard rotation would be much fun or feel particularly unique or well-realized in a standard job capacity.

A major appeal of BLU in prior games was effectively breaking the game...or at least "working" for the ability to bypass certain parts of the game with overpowered spells. A BLU without status effects, ridiculous defensive buffs, janky combos, or massive elemental DPS nonsense just wouldn't feel like BLU. And ALL of that would go away if BLU had to be reduced to a spell rotation; classic BLU spells would either be totally removed to fit a particular job role or watered down to a point that they wouldn't feel like anything in order to not outclass the other jobs. Mighty Guard being a weak shield, Bad Breath being maybe one weak status effect, etc. etc.

What we got is totally fine. It's not perfect. It needs more of the game opened up to it. But if it had been a normal job I don't think anyone would have touched it because it wouldn't have felt much like itself, nor would it have felt like a very interesting healer and/or caster on the level of what we already have. It would have been, at best, slightly aesthetically different with some water and missile spells and maybe a shallow build-and-spend bar. As it is now, it is a job built around some pretty neat *reactive* water-spell combos like aqua breath, hydro pull and chelonian gate that can *only* work outside of the job balancing meta, with the additional option of role-switching to utilize the classic healing/defense/explosion spells as needed.

I can see some semblance of an argument for BLU maybe working as a magic tank and sacrificing *less* of its identity. It absolutely would not have worked as DPS without giving up too much of what makes BLU unique.

And I will say it again to stay on topic; the idea of locking any animal companion to a specific weapon has always been a bizarre, archaic concept to me. It never really existed in DnD where it originated, it doesn't exist now in competitor MMOs like Wow and GW2, and with the companion system in place it doesn't presently exist in FFXIV. But it necessarily would have to be in order to make a "BST" job work, because every job in FF is locked to a specific weapon archetype.

For that reason, on top of the "pet AI" problem and the sheer unnecessary limitation a BST would likely set on the number of animal companions and their available abilities...I do not think BST will or should *ever* be in XIV as a non-limited standard job design. I could see the exclusive weapon issue being less of a problem in a limited pet job class offering the same range of variety as the BLU job, but even still I think it would be an unnecessary step down when separating the BST fantasy from job design altogether offers much more flexibility through the companion system.

[Shurrikhan]

Issues with your suggestion:
1. Restricting a standard job behind side content is dumb and they would and should never do that. Making the job entirely side content is something else.

This is literally the basis of every DnD "Hero class" ever. You delved further into X, which was rewarded with something befitting X and further reason to keep doing X.

You have 17 other jobs to pick from. There is no reason to forbid BLU unique acquisition methods even if it became a full-fledged job. It's not as if such was forbidden from giving EXP, even.

At most, you simply make BLU that much more versatile (via possessing more than the minimum required actions) than the average caster (not in terms of cost-less simultaneous output, but the ability to save a party at cost to its damage by directing its tools towards buffing the BLU's eHP or healing said party). That's plenty of reward for directing some of BLU's time spent leveling towards BLU-ish things.

2. The issue is not about removing access to MC (although gutting this version would inadvertently lead to that), but more that this version of BLU is only fun when it can customize your build using bizarre and broken spells. All of which would not be possible if it were to do max level content. Why would anyone play BLU if it can't do Ram's Voice + Ultravibration or blowing themselves up at any given moment? I guess the people that would put more emphasis on the job label than anything else.

Nor is there any need to prevent BLU from having customization. There is already greater deviation between say, any two NINs, despite their kit being preset and entirely offense-oriented, than having swapped out a handful of skills would produce on BLU.

Your last point seems to have no relevance to the quote above it, so I guess I'll skip that one?

[jon041065]

And I never want to see another job just be some side activity. Yes I would have most likely mained blu if it was an actual job.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

And I never want to see another job just be some side activity. Yes I would have most likely mained blu if it was an actual job.

Whereas I'd rather have a unique side activity that can sometimes play "normally," if only in old content (which BLU can do, and I do use it for), than "caster DPS #4." Some desires are mutually incompatible.

For example, I'm not happy with FF14's RDM. RDM is my favorite job in the single-player series and my main in FF11; FF14's DPS-focused RDM feels like a hollowed out shell in comparison. I didn't even bother leveling it in ShB, and only leveled it in EW because they added Magicked Barrier. Selfishly, I would gladly swap RDM and BLU in terms of which were the limited job, unchained from FF14's holy trinity job design. However, a lot of people enjoy RDM and I've made peace with that. At this point, I just wish people would stop trying to get SE to cut Vercure and Verraise out of the kit, just so RDM can inch somewhat closer to BLM's DPS.

Thus, given that turning BLU into a full job would destroy what I now enjoy, I'm in opposition to that outcome. Even if I fully understand why you may want it.

As for Beastmaster, I'm less concerned with full or limited job than I am with it having an actual pet as part of the hypothetical kit. Frankly, I think BLU already covers most of the ground a limited job should or can cover, in terms of the activities and possibilities it opens up. BST could easily be a full job with 1-3 "full" pets, most of the fundamental kit on the master themself, and a monster catching/dueling minigame mostly disconnected from leveling the class. I wouldn't mind it being limited either though, especially if SE just doesn't want to make a full pet job because of the (mis)perception that such jobs are difficult to play. I'd rather have something than nothing, especially if that something provides a markedly unique experience.

[jon041065]

Whereas I'd rather have a unique side activity that can sometimes play "normally," if only in old content (which BLU can do, and I do use it for), than "caster DPS #4." Some desires are mutually incompatible.

For example, I'm not happy with FF14's RDM. RDM is my favorite job in the single-player series and my main in FF11; FF14's DPS-focused RDM feels like a hollowed out shell in comparison. I didn't even bother leveling it in ShB, and only leveled it in EW because they added Magicked Barrier. Selfishly, I would gladly swap RDM and BLU in terms of which were the limited job, unchained from FF14's holy trinity job design. However, a lot of people enjoy RDM and I've made peace with that. At this point, I just wish people would stop trying to get SE to cut Vercure and Verraise out of the kit, just so RDM can inch somewhat closer to BLM's DPS.

Thus, given that turning BLU into a full job would destroy what I now enjoy, I'm in opposition to that outcome. Even if I fully understand why you may want it.

As for Beastmaster, I'm less concerned with full or limited job than I am with it having an actual pet as part of the hypothetical kit. Frankly, I think BLU already covers most of the ground a limited job should or can cover, in terms of the activities and possibilities it opens up. BST could easily be a full job with 1-3 "full" pets, most of the fundamental kit on the master themself, and a monster catching/dueling minigame mostly disconnected from leveling the class. I wouldn't mind it being limited either though, especially if SE just doesn't want to make a full pet job because of the (mis)perception that such jobs are difficult to play. I'd rather have something than nothing, especially if that something provides a markedly unique experience.

Well thankfully not many that are against limited jobs are also against that type of side content. We just don't want a job to be ONLY that. What's wrong with wanting to play with the job concept where we want to if you're able to play with it where you want still?

[Shurrikhan]

turning BLU into a full job would destroy what I now enjoy

What, specifically, do you enjoy about it, though, that would be destroyed by un-limiting BLU's access to content?

Personally...
I like that it has multi-hit skills, since that offers some varied synergy paths.
I like having strong-and-therefore-brief buffs, even if I'm not a fan of Whistle specifically.
I like the Moon Flute opener well enough; I just dislike how quickly the rotation fizzles out into dull filler until the next round. (That's not a problem fundamentally unique to BLU by any means, but relative to how easily such could be addressed, it may be unique in its degree.)
I like that it has quick, interesting repeater skills like Surpanakha and channeled skills like Phantom Flurry (though its lack of hit values annoys me).
I like that the job can flex into healer or tanking capacities, though I dislike that those areas of the kit are propped up only by certain objectively overpowered abilities.
I like building out my deck differently based on particular fights, though I dislike how many skills lack even an illusion of competitive value, with only a small portion being real choices. Moreover, I'd like to be able to select quickly from among a handful of premade decks as I'm zoning in and to be able to assign instance-specific decks to that list of choices, even if that information may only be held client-side.
I like that it has unique acquisition systems, though I dislike how purposely grindy that's been made (unsurprising as that may be since the "job" is, first and foremost, simply a means of rejuvenating old content).

None of the parts I like, in each of those areas, need be removed in allowing the job to do current content.

But, perhaps your interests are entirely different. So, what is it that you like about BLU that would necessarily be removed by allowing BLU capable to do current content?

[Gaethan_Tessula]

This is going to take multiple posts, and I don't even get to my concerns until the second. Please read to the end of all posts before responding.

What, specifically, do you enjoy about it, though, that would be destroyed by un-limiting BLU's access to content?

Personally...
[Good list of reasons]

None of the parts I like, in each of those areas, need be removed in allowing the job to do current content.

But, perhaps your interests are entirely different. So, what is it that you like about BLU that would necessarily be removed by allowing BLU capable to do current content?

* I like the role flexibility. I especially enjoy the high amount of utility one could theoretically pack onto BLU. Albeit that is undercut by how thick the pack is with "must take" spells for a given role, and things like Diamondback being needed to deal with mechanics jank in all BLU parties.

* I like the rotation, generally speaking, based on Flute Windows, oGCD priorities, and (formerly with a SpS build) having aspects of a DoT kit. I could definitely stand to see the "filler" portion of the rotation be a bit more involved though, especially with Libra falling out of favor as spellslot space tightens.

* I enjoy finding use for niche spells, either in old fights or the Carnivale, which I do enjoy and was disappointed they didn't add more fights to besides Gogo in 5.45.

* I really like playing a healer that actually can build itself some entertaining downtime between heals, though being entirely tied to healing on the GCD is a mixed bag (it's almost unique, and that can be interesting; I said "almost unique" because it's basically lvl 50 WHM, and that's bad).

In terms of what I play BLU for, it's roughly: MINE Content with mixed jobs > Carnivale minigame > helping new BLU get their spells > all BLU sync'd fights. Spell collection is thematic, but not why I play the class, I don't really like leveling, and I find the actual "instakill OP" aspects of the job boring outside of their use in the Carnivale.

1/3

[Gaethan_Tessula]

So, why don't I think BLU would work at max level? After all, the thing I use it most for is pretty close to regular content! Well, logistical limitations and knowing the playerbase, mostly.

I wasn't kidding with the Sastasha question before. If BLU is suddenly allowed to go into Duty Finder, what would be the result? Let me spin some predictions:

1. BLU just drops into Sastasha with its full kit, alongside some sprout on a class with four moves. BLU would proceed to clown on most leveling content it entered. Dev team doesn't care about old content being challenging, sure, but unlimited BLU turning it into an open joke that leaves a bad impression on new players? They'd never allow that.

2. BLU moves get level limits, forcing BLU to pick from a smaller pool at lower level. Is the BLU supposed to rebuild their deck in the 10-15 seconds available to them after they queue in? "Wait guys, I don't have any valid moves equipped, give me 30s..." every time a BLU queues? Will BLUs be expected to build tens of macros to swap spellsets upon queuing into roulettes? You'd need three-sets of macros for nearly every-other level in leveling roulette, for the three roles, let alone instance-specific sets for particular encounters. I can't see that going over well with the FF14 playerbase, they don't have the patience for that FF11-esque out-of-instance logistical preparation.

3. BLU gets assigned a specific set of duties when level sync'd below maximum. Here we start to cut into BLU's flexibility of choice, badly. If it's duty-finder only, you suddenly have a job that plays completely different in duty finder versus party finder. If it's both, then suddenly BLU's flexibility is gone below max level.

4. BLU has a rigid moveset, like any regular job. Maybe 3 sets, one for each role, at best. Goodbye deckbuilding minigame, goodbye BLU that I knew. Especially since I know they'd eliminate healer-BLU or stick it with one dull filler and a DoT.

5. Unlimited BLU is its own job. I mean, I wouldn't complain if Square Enix did this, so long as they continued to update limited BLU as well. However, it's not BLU as we know it now going into current content.

Thus, I see BLU remaining hedged out of Duty Finder, and thus any content that can only be entered via Duty Finder (Deep Dungeon, Eureka, Bozja, etc.). I could maybe see BLU being let into Deep Dungeons on their own leaderboard and being ineligible to get the current titles (getting their own instead, e.g. "Blue Necromancer").

2/3