What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

A handful of posters were having a pleasant conversation with one another only to be accused of being an 'echo chamber' in the process. That was the point in which the conversation was derailed so I think it's rather disingenuous for such accusations to be made only for the same accusers to then cry foul and pretend as if the pushback they receive in response is equal to 'toxicity'.

[Kaurhz]

A handful of posters were having a pleasant conversation with one another only to be accused of being an 'echo chamber' in the process. That was the point in which the conversation was derailed so I think it's rather disingenuous for such accusations to be made only for the same accusers to then cry foul and pretend as if the pushback they receive in response is equal to 'toxicity'.

Probably would not have happened if you didn't elect to try and undermine a several previous discussions in the thread with this. If a person tries to denounce an opinion on the basis that it doesn't coincide with yours or the premise of the thread and should therefore make their own praising the story then by very definition it is an echo chamber. If all threads followed this premise then the majority of threads in this nature could be summarised as:

Insert Opinion
> Me 2
> Me 3
/thread

I hope people won't be subjected to more horrific personal attacks and defamatory comments from certain posters. That's usually the next step after the latest round of 'NOOOO, U MUST LIEK AND AGREE WITH CRYSTAL MOMMY' begins.

At this point it's just reaping what you sow. Not necessarily toxic but it's very inflammatory to debate. You could have left it and this derailment would not have occurred in the first place. It's just essentially playing tit-for-tat.

[NanaWiloh]

Thread needs to be moved to the lore section. And then combined with the current thread there discussing the story.

[Kozh]

You’re stretching believability for the sake of your own headcanon.

Rich coming from you, miss "the Ancients has reached their perfection and are stagnating".

Prove either

Is this really the hill you wanted to die on? Or do you perhaps have amnesia and forget everything about the previous boss? Hydaelyn straight up had to shield us from Ultima magic. To kill lahabrea we need the dragon eye. Emet was defeated by the help of blessing of light (and a continent worth of light aether that we manage to contain because we have blessing of light). In elidibus fight we only survived because of the Azem crystal MADE by Emet, and he also directly save us from the rift. Heck, all this time we're being empowered by Blessing of Light and the Echo (which is a remnant of the Ancient power).

Just throw Hermes in Pandaemonium, which is on fire atm, that’ll be great. Surely no problem will emerge when he’s needed to summon Zodiark.

Except his real contribution is figuring where the final days will hit first, not about Zodiark. They could have substitute him with anyone else if they have the knowledge of meteion beforehand.

Judging by your previous posts, I think you're under the assumption that the Ancients are: 1) playing gods, 2) kill predatory creatures. Which is just plain wrong. For first point, even the short story clearly said "when men and gods are the same" regarding the Ancient. Ethyris was untamed wilderness, and they are responsible for managing it and creating ecosystem. They do set their own standard because no one else is going to.

This leads to second point. If you pay attention, the creatures in elpis only looks pacified because they're on testing phase. And even then, please don't ignore the fact that they were given the abilities to attack or protect themselves. They don't "only make peaceful creatures". The wolf thingy is a special case because they're so aggressive and rabid. If you're a scientist tasked to create an artificial ecosystem, would you release a creature that would wreak havoc and potentially erase several other species just because you feel bad for them? That would be irresponsible.

Speaking of "betterment of the star", from what I read on the memo scattered across Ktisis, it feels more that rather than ra-la type of perfection, the Ancients betterment are more about how to maintain the ecosystem in general. Considering that they still allow natural events to happen (i.e letting volcano erupt).

[Rulakir]

The lore forum doesn't get that much traffic and there is no thread there discussing the story.

[Kozh]

All this math is really getting in the way of the power of friendship and camaraderie and hope for tomorrow that actually defeated the ascians.

Seriously how can you stand thinking about fiction in terms of power levels and force multiplers? I do not understand this way of thinking at all.

I seriously do hope this is just a joke/sarcasm.

[KariTheFox]

I seriously do hope this is just a joke/sarcasm.

I mean, a little? Not really? All this "well it took 26/14 sundered to kill an unsundered, proving that the unsundered are still mathematically stronger" talk reminds me more of dicussions about dragon ball z power level numbers.

[Sicno]

I mean, a little? Not really? All this "well it took 26/14 sundered to kill an unsundered, proving that the unsundered are still mathematically stronger" talk reminds me more of dicussions about dragon ball z power level numbers.

I know it sounds silly, it was just to illustrate the point that it wasn't a mere small indie powerless fragmented WoL who had bested those unsundered by their lone self with no external help.

[drtasteyummy]

Just sum the Endwalker story up and you'll notice how ridiculous all that was:

the dude who simps harder for us than twitch mods in a female stream singlehandly destroys the whole empire we were about to fight then proceeds to go duo queue with a low level ascian because he is super bored that we are super bored of him, then they dr octogonapus the moon seals where zodiark is chilling with netflix, next they wanna beam up on the moon like scotty but hyda says no and redirects them because she can just do that, afterwards we beam on the moon and having a chill talk with the moon dude like we have all time just so the duo q comes out of nowhere and one hits the 2 remaining seals because why not, suddenly the bootleg hermes ez pz takes over the god zodiark, then we kill zodiark just like that who is half of all people from an elevated super race, just to find out that the moon is actually a space taxi operated by little bunnies that made everything look like carrots, next we go back in time like dr evil where we get explained for 30 minutes how impossible it is to interact with anything just so emet snips once and suddenly we can, we get exposed and hermes is like "I was bored so I made this collective hivemind super entities and they work on antimatter basis eh I mean feelings", then proceeds to shoot them out like spaceships to collect information about all entities in the universe while they somehow fly with a speed close to seagull, subsequently they find thousand of civilizations but they're all R.I.P (because of very logical reasons like that the universe will only exists for like 1823718 billion years so life is crap), then Meteion goes evolved super emo black 3 and is like why even exist I'll just kill everyone and hermes is like that totally makes sense while pulling off some men in black neuralyzer. Emet kicks us out together with venat who proceeds to just do absolutely nothing while we travel forward in time, we go to Hyda who is like "With my last power I have to test you to see if you're ready" (test us? test us for what? Meteion kills all life in the universe if we fail), so we fly to Meteion where every of our friends theatrical sacrifies himself just so emet looks up his sleeves and finds a full revive for everybody in there, we kill the thing and Meteion is like sowwy shrug, then the super simp shows up and is like finally we can duel to the surprise of absolutely nobody he dies again, we go back to our world and everybody is like wow that was the sickest thing ever this really deepened our friendship like nothing else anyway we should disband now because I want to do something else.

[EaraGrace]

I just genuinely enjoy discussing the game's story and characters, personally. I simply feel as though the game compromised itself in order to have what it thought would be 'broad appeal'. Fast food might be the most popular cuisine in the world but that doesn't mean it measures up to a juicy Wagyu burger.

Venat strikes me as the equivalent of a Happy Meal and for some, that's more than enough. My tastes are a bit more refined than that, though - so I resonate more with characters who have deeper, more consistent motives and personal stakes. Each to their own, of course.

Once again, if you’re going to repeatedly try and question someone’s “toxicity,” you should apply the same to miss Eara was being equally as toxic when she referred to our opinions as an echo chamber.

My sincere apologies.

I will endeavor to only snark when snarked upon in the future!

They simply had no reason to pursue that knowledge at large because dynamis wasn't predominant in Etheyris and it's also weaker than aether, so there weren't "practical" applications. Hermes's was a personal interest in learning about other worlds to try to fill his existencial voids, so think of it as his "hobby". But that doesn't mean they weren't capable of conducting such research if they had REASON to. Like preventing their race and planet from being wiped out from existance.

Ok. Do you agree then that Hermes was the sole expert then? We can move on after that but that is the question we were discussing.

And as I've mentioned before, Elpis is just one research facility. And one devoted to testing creations before letting them roam free. Its main purpose wasn't to design new creations inside it, but rather for everybody across the star to bring their creations and test them. Considering dynamis wasn't a practical avenue for them to explore it's not surprising that the only person with knowledge about it has it because of a hobby. But again, Elpis is JUST ONE RESEARCH FACILITY.

Ok, that doesn't change the fact that all research facilities must submit concepts to the Bureau, and the Bureau wasn't aware of Dynamis creations from anywhere else. Thats the reason I brought that up in the first place after all, to highlight that Elpis specifically is special in regards to Entelechies.

Having said all this, the "objective statements" you made afterwards crumble down except for the "other scholars" and Hythlodaeus parts. First one is explicitly stated in dialog, the 2nd can be inferred. Also, just because knowledge is scarce doesn't mean it's old, abandoned knowledge.

I'm gonna disagree. But hey I respect your right to an opinion.

Oh wow, that sounds an awful lot like MAKING A DISTINCTION.

Ok.

Lets try this again from the beginning.

After Venat sundered Etheirys, do you think she distinguished between the sundered and the unsundered as different peoples entirely, or do you think she views them as part of the same group? This is the distinction we are discussing, yes? After all its this and only this one, that has a bearing on whether she gave up on humanity when she sundered it.

Rich coming from you, miss "the Ancients has reached their perfection and are stagnating".

Yes that is a theme in the story we played. And maybe a slight quibble, but my point wasn't that they were "perfect," but that perfection in their eyes would be a false dream that would damn them.

Except his real contribution is figuring where the final days will hit first, not about Zodiark. They could have substitute him with anyone else if they have the knowledge of meteion beforehand.

That was indeed a contribution he made, an extremely important one, but both the dialogue with Elidibus and what we know of Hermes background show that he did much more than that. The underlying mechanism behind Zodiarks protection rested in his ability to change celestial aether currents, a topic Hermes was a foremost scholar in.