What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[EaraGrace]

They may not needed to summon Zodiark had she informed them of the threat BEFOREHAND. I’ve already given numerous examples of “how” she could have prevented the event. Considering how much you respond to me i’d assume you have my posts memorized by now, otherwise a brief summary. Tell Emet, a very intelligent man. Start honing their dynamis skills, using the facility that allows them to do just that. Step 3:Profit the end

I respond so often because your posts are so often unsourced and inaccurate. Stop that and maybe I won’t feel the need to argue.

And by all means, explain how a man who didn’t know of Dynamis at all is supposed to come up with a counteract. Tell me how beings that couldn’t hear Meteions cries could fight against a being of pure Dynamis. Let’s hear it.

They absolutely needed Hermes for Zodiark... in spite of creations being very much their specialty, and particularly that of Lahabrea. They absolutely needed him to understand the celestial currents... in spite of there being other experts on this self-same topic.


Yeah totally, doesn't distinguish.

Every rectangle a square but not all squares are rectangles is a difficult concept I know.

But sure let’s talk clear examples.



“Our journey” doesn’t exactly scream “we’re different groups of people.”

And in Elpis she repeatedly uses “we” when discussing our plans for what to do next, referring to her and us.

And there’s this.



And this



But yeah totally no reason to think the sundered and unsundered were both equally human and part of the same group.

[Lauront]

Aha. Anyway, you keep at it with your attempt at lore-policing. I'd sooner have a conversation with a brick wall.

[EaraGrace]

Aha. Anyway, you keep at it with your attempt at lore-policing. I'd sooner have a conversation with a brick wall.

I can attest to what that’s like given our previous conversations.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I respond so often because your posts are so often unsourced and inaccurate. Stop that and maybe I won’t feel the need to argue.

And by all means, explain how a man who didn’t know of Dynamis at all is supposed to come up with a counteract. Tell me how beings that couldn’t hear Meteions cries could fight against a being of pure Dynamis. Let’s hear it.




Every rectangle a square but not all squares are rectangles is a difficult concept I know.

You’re the one that is constantly grasping at straws, constantly trying to defend your crystal mom waifu when for all intents and purposes, she is a monster. You are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else is, however i have given numerous examples, backed by actual in game knowledge and lore to support my
claims. Your claims have constantly been “because the story says so she’s a hero blah blah don’t think too hard about it.” Fact is, at the end of the day, she didn’t tell anyone what she knew. She kept it a secret and it led to her destroying her own entire world. I’d rather not continue this conversation though as you seem to be getting rather tired of being proven wrong time and time again, and so i bid you adieu~

[EaraGrace]

You’re the one that is constantly grasping at straws, constantly trying to defend your crystal mom waifu when for all intents and purposes, she is a monster. You are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else is, however i have given numerous examples, backed by actual in game knowledge and lore to support my
claims. Your claims have constantly been “because the story says so she’s a hero blah blah don’t think too hard about it.” Fact is, at the end of the day, she didn’t tell anyone what she knew. She kept it a secret and it led to her destroying her own entire world. I’d rather not continue this conversation though as you seem to be getting rather tired of being proven wrong time and time again, and so i bid you adieu~

You provide no evidence, no text, no reason to believe what you claim, and when I point out where the text disagrees with you you claim it’s either bad writing, my headcanon, or some combination. The fact you believe you’ve disproved anything makes clear that my biggest failing in these convos is that yiu are capable of good faith discussion.

Except when she calls us her "childs".

Posting these again.

“Our journey” doesn’t exactly scream “we’re different groups of people.”

And in Elpis she repeatedly uses “we” when discussing our plans for what to do next, referring to her and us.



And this



Venat and Hydaelyn consistently make clear we are united and while different in nature, both are of mankind.

[Sicno]

Posting these again.
“Our journey” doesn’t exactly scream “we’re different groups of people.”

No matter how many times you post it, cherry-picking one sentence where she uses the word that encompases both "you" and "me" together when talking about something that refers to all of us won't make the other instances where she treated us as "her childs", like she's our mother who gave us birth, go away. I don't think she spoke to the other ancients in the same way when she was still Venat. Do you ever see her address Emet or Hythlodaeus as "my child"?

And in Elpis she repeatedly uses “we” when discussing our plans for what to do next, referring to her and us.

I see a pattern. You're putting too much weight on words like "we" and "our" which are SUPER common in regular coversation to refer to multiple subjects including the speaker. Is that all you got to make your point? Do you make such a distinction when speaking about "we and our dog"? Is that natural to you?

Also, in those last 2 screenshots she's still talking as Venat, the sundering is far away from happening yet, why would she talk in a funny way to make a forceful distinction at that point?

Venat and Hydaelyn consistently make clear we are united and while different in nature, both are of mankind.

Addressed in my previous points, but regardless, she has said many things, some which have been backpedaled explicitly in the story (like the convo with the Watcher) but actions speak louder than words. She didn't believe in humanity so she took it upon herself (without prior consultation) to sunder and create a new one that she believed would fare better. So much for unity. Also, that "humanity" that was in the other shards was gonna get abandoned in her escape plan. Guess they weren't humanity enough, as she was only concerned with the ones on the Source.

[EaraGrace]

No matter how many times you post it, cherry-picking one sentence where she uses the word that encompases both "you" and "me/we" together when talking about something that refers to all of us won't make the other instances where she treated us as "her childs", like she's our mother who gave us birth, go away. I don't think she spoke to the other ancients in the same way when she was still Venat. Do you ever see her address Emet or Hythlodaeus as "my child"?

No, but I don’t think Emet or Hyth were as young comparatively and I’m pretty sure she wasn’t a god then.

I see a pattern. You're putting too much weight on words like "we" and "our" which are SUPER common in regular coversation to refer to multiple subjects including the speaker. Is that all you got to make your point? Do you make such a distinction when speaking about "we and our dog"? Is that natural to you?

What is “we” and “us” and “our” referring to in those screenshots in your opinion? What group?

Also, in those last 2 screenshots she's still talking as Venat, the sundering is far away from happening yet, why would she talk in a funny way to make a forceful distinction at that point?

Because whether she’s Venat doesn’t matter??? It’s about how she viewed the relationship between the sundered and unsundered, of course I’m going to use her direct quotes.

Addressed in my previous points, but regardless, she has said many things, some which have been backpedaled explicitly in the story (like the convo with the Watcher) but actions speak louder than words. She didn't believe in humanity so she took it upon herself (without prior consultation) to sunder and create a new one that she believed would fare better. So much for unity.

She sundered them because she believed they could overcome suffering. If she gave up on humanity, then what would the sundering do? It didn’t make them more moral, or inherently smarter or stronger. It just forced them to confront suffering with their own strength, the same strength the Ancients possessed.

Also, that "humanity" that was in the other shards was gonna get abandoned in her escape plan. Guess they weren't humanity enough, as she was only concerned with the ones on the Source.

You’re right, she should’ve just nixed the backup plan. If we failed to beat her the Sources inhabitants should also rot in solidarity.

You can repeat it until you go blue in the face. It won't change the fact that it is not him alone who is credited with the design of Zodiark. Worse comes to worse? Strip mine any pertinent knowledge from his mind. He is a criminal at that point anyway.

Ask Elidibus or Emet how they felt about his contributions. I wonder how they would describe him.

And the question is whether he was an integral part of Zodiarks creation, not the only one. Many I’m sure contributed, without him however things would get dicey.

[Sicno]

No, but I don’t think Emet or Hyth were as young comparatively and I’m pretty sure she wasn’t a god then.

Oh wow, that sounds an awful lot like MAKING A DISTINCTION.

[EaraGrace]

I just genuinely enjoy discussing the game's story and characters, personally. I simply feel as though the game compromised itself in order to have what it thought would be 'broad appeal'. Fast food might be the most popular cuisine in the world but that doesn't mean it measures up to a juicy Wagyu burger.

Venat strikes me as the equivalent of a Happy Meal and for some, that's more than enough. My tastes are a bit more refined than that, though - so I resonate more with characters who have deeper, more consistent motives and personal stakes. Each to their own, of course.

Once again, if you’re going to repeatedly try and question someone’s “toxicity,” you should apply the same to miss Eara was being equally as toxic when she referred to our opinions as an echo chamber.

My sincere apologies.

I will endeavor to only snark when snarked upon in the future!

They simply had no reason to pursue that knowledge at large because dynamis wasn't predominant in Etheyris and it's also weaker than aether, so there weren't "practical" applications. Hermes's was a personal interest in learning about other worlds to try to fill his existencial voids, so think of it as his "hobby". But that doesn't mean they weren't capable of conducting such research if they had REASON to. Like preventing their race and planet from being wiped out from existance.

Ok. Do you agree then that Hermes was the sole expert then? We can move on after that but that is the question we were discussing.

And as I've mentioned before, Elpis is just one research facility. And one devoted to testing creations before letting them roam free. Its main purpose wasn't to design new creations inside it, but rather for everybody across the star to bring their creations and test them. Considering dynamis wasn't a practical avenue for them to explore it's not surprising that the only person with knowledge about it has it because of a hobby. But again, Elpis is JUST ONE RESEARCH FACILITY.

Ok, that doesn't change the fact that all research facilities must submit concepts to the Bureau, and the Bureau wasn't aware of Dynamis creations from anywhere else. Thats the reason I brought that up in the first place after all, to highlight that Elpis specifically is special in regards to Entelechies.

Having said all this, the "objective statements" you made afterwards crumble down except for the "other scholars" and Hythlodaeus parts. First one is explicitly stated in dialog, the 2nd can be inferred. Also, just because knowledge is scarce doesn't mean it's old, abandoned knowledge.

I'm gonna disagree. But hey I respect your right to an opinion.

Oh wow, that sounds an awful lot like MAKING A DISTINCTION.

Ok.

Lets try this again from the beginning.

After Venat sundered Etheirys, do you think she distinguished between the sundered and the unsundered as different peoples entirely, or do you think she views them as part of the same group? This is the distinction we are discussing, yes? After all its this and only this one, that has a bearing on whether she gave up on humanity when she sundered it.

Rich coming from you, miss "the Ancients has reached their perfection and are stagnating".

Yes that is a theme in the story we played. And maybe a slight quibble, but my point wasn't that they were "perfect," but that perfection in their eyes would be a false dream that would damn them.

Except his real contribution is figuring where the final days will hit first, not about Zodiark. They could have substitute him with anyone else if they have the knowledge of meteion beforehand.

That was indeed a contribution he made, an extremely important one, but both the dialogue with Elidibus and what we know of Hermes background show that he did much more than that. The underlying mechanism behind Zodiarks protection rested in his ability to change celestial aether currents, a topic Hermes was a foremost scholar in.