Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

[Rika007]

You only need 3 jobs to get the bonus. What about the 4th dps slot? Why should a job that can't save a run have lower dps than a job who can? All jobs should be close to each other but someone has to be at the bottom and it should be the jobs with the best utility.

I'm sorry but why should they be? Why should the best utility jobs be near the bottom? That's such an arbitrary reason, just as arbitrary as saying, the best mobility, or the easiest rotation, or the least amount of party synergy mechanics. And also is not one that's easily quantified. Reaper has great utility. Monk has solid utility. Hell I would say that both Black Mage and Samurai have more 'utility' then Machinist, yet if you were to suddenly put Machinist damage on par with theirs, I'm sure you get massive blow back from a good part of the community.

The community doesn't even agree on what makes up utility. Some say it's anything that contributes to buffing the damage, mitigation, or healing of others. Some say that damage shouldn't be included in that. Some say its bringing any ability that makes the job of others easier. Balancing around such a nebulous statistic only causes issues.

And also your question still doesn't address the problem of "What happens when the run doesnt need to be saved?" aka 90% of the time we play this game. After a few weeks, almost every piece of content in this game becomes trivial, save ultimate. When that utility means absolutely nothing, it should no longer be factored into balance.

[Reinha]

Why should the best utility jobs be near the bottom?

So that other jobs bring something useful too, such as higher damage. That's how balancing works. Not "let's give this one job every tool in the book and top tier damage so that they can have a guaranteed spot during progression AND farm".

[Tulzscha]

I'm sorry but why should they be? Why should the best utility jobs be near the bottom? That's such an arbitrary reason, just as arbitrary as saying, the best mobility, or the easiest rotation, or the least amount of party synergy mechanics. And also is not one that's easily quantified. Reaper has great utility. Monk has solid utility. Hell I would say that both Black Mage and Samurai have more 'utility' then Machinist, yet if you were to suddenly put Machinist damage on par with theirs, I'm sure you get massive blow back from a good part of the community.

The community doesn't even agree on what makes up utility. Some say it's anything that contributes to buffing the damage, mitigation, or healing of others. Some say that damage shouldn't be included in that. Some say its bringing any ability that makes the job of others easier. Balancing around such a nebulous statistic only causes issues.

And also your question still doesn't address the problem of "What happens when the run doesnt need to be saved?" aka 90% of the time we play this game. After a few weeks, almost every piece of content in this game becomes trivial, save ultimate. When that utility means absolutely nothing, it should no longer be factored into balance.

I would say utility is any non-damage contribution that helps the group. Healing, rezzing, interrupts, mitigation, etc. Most damage buffs are included in rdps, saying they count as utility is just a different (and less clear) way of comparing rdps vs adps.

As for which jobs should be higher or lower, I'd look at it this way:

1. If two jobs have exactly the same potential output but one offers something the other doesn't, why would you play the job that offers nothing? Downplay it all you want an advantage is an advantage, even in a seasoned group people can screw up, having an extra rez is nice. Clearing a little faster is also nice, neither is that big of a deal for a good group, it's more a matter of preference.

How much having a rez should cost I can't say but it should cost something. Balance is most important for prog, afterwards when people have experience and better gear it doesn't matter as much who has a rez and who doesn't, nor does it matter as much who deals more damage, you're getting the clear regardless.

2. Same goes for ease of play. If two jobs have the same potential output but one can be executed with a single macro while running around as much as you like while the other requires the group working around you to make sure you're able to keep dpsing, fun factor aside there's no reason to play the difficult job and those who do because they enjoy it will likely end up discouraged.

Imo jobs should not be balanced around max potential for this reason, nor should they be balanced around the worst players as that will create too large of a disparity at the top. Finding that magic number where the most people are satisfied is the hard part.

3. Jobs that buff the group can only ever be as good as the whole group. Their max potential rdps is higher by nature but their lows are also lower, the more buff-centric the job the more their own rdps is out of their control.

SMNs offer a good amount of utility: Free healing for the group + a targeted heal every 2 minutes that doesn't come at the cost of dps, a decent self shield every 30s, and the ability to rez which only one other dps can do. They are extremely mobile and ranged with an incredibly straight-forward rotation that's almost impossible to mess up - it doesn't always do well with downtime but that's a design problem more than a numbers problem. And they have a raid buff. It makes sense to me that their adps would be among the lowest.

Their rdps is dependent on the group making good use of their buff which thanks to its long duration is not difficult to do resulting in less variance compared to Ninja for example which would result in SMN's max potential rdps being lower while their low end should be higher.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

snip

I see people say that sometimes, where utility is everything that is not dam related but here is the thing do we know for sure the dev balance around that definition of utility? Shoot I personally don't think they use rdps since that is technically a form of measurement that site that should not be named used. I might be wrong but didn't rdps start there in the first place? Just because you believe utility is not related to dam buffs doesn't mean the devs do, if so why is nin always near the bottom of the melee? What utility other than TA does it bring to a party that makes it have the lowest rdps among the melee. The point is if the utility doesn't include buffs like TA, AC, SL, Embolden, and ect then why is nin being taxed so hard compared to other melees who have more healing/mitigation utility like mnk and rpr?

Also on the smn healing utility show me an example everlasting flight or rekindle come useful in current fights that don't just lead to overhealing because they land during times the healing isn't necessarily? SMN so call utility is too depends on its rotation. You as the smn have no say in when or where to use it. Do you know what I can do as a rdm right now? Ask my healers when they want magick barrier, I can't do that for either everlasting flight or rekindle. So I wouldn't call smn's utility good XD

[Tulzscha]

I see people say that sometimes, where utility is everything that is not dam related but here is the thing do we know for sure the dev balance around that definition of utility? Shoot I personally don't think they use rdps since that is technically a form of measurement that site that should not be named used. I might be wrong but didn't rdps start there in the first place? Just because you believe utility is not related to dam buffs doesn't mean the devs do, if so why is nin always near the bottom of the melee? What utility other than TA does it bring to a party that makes it have the lowest rdps among the melee. The point is if the utility doesn't include buffs like TA, AC, SL, Embolden, and ect then why is nin being taxed so hard compared to other melees who have more healing/mitigation utility like mnk and rpr?

Also on the smn healing utility show me an example everlasting flight or rekindle come useful in current fights that don't just lead to overhealing because they land during times the healing isn't necessarily? SMN so call utility is too depends on its rotation. You as the smn have no say in when or where to use it. Do you know what I can do as a rdm right now? Ask my healers when they want magick barrier, I can't do that for either everlasting flight or rekindle. So I wouldn't call smn's utility good XD

You're nit-picking the use of the word utility. My point is having a raid buff shouldn't result in a tax on your total damage output because it is part of your damage output - it will definitely lower personal dps though. I don't play Ninja nor do I know why SE balances the way they do. Going by fflogs it looks like Ninja was top in ShB and even in EW it's not far from the top at all, what's the problem? All the melee look very close right now, Ninja isn't being taxed hard.

As for SMN's healing: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/f3PbV...aling&source=7 is one example - 26% overhealing on Everlasting Flight, not bad at all for a hot. Just pick a boss select Summoner and sort by healing for more examples. I haven't been raiding with SMN so I can't speak on boss dmg timings with Phoenix but it's definitely not as useless as people make it out to be.

Magick Barrier doesn't actually heal, its reliant on healers to make use of its utility while SMN is not - Magick Barrier should actually buff SMN's healing.

I think that smn heals are really situational: most of the time they're useless overheal, and single target heal it's not exactly free since you lose an attack.

SMN's heals are absolutely free, you don't choose between an attack or a heal you do both and Phoenix's potencies were buffed so it's overall stronger than Bahamut despite having 1 less attack.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

You're nit-picking the use of the word utility. My point is having a raid buff shouldn't result in a tax on your total damage output because it is part of your damage output - it will definitely lower personal dps though. I don't play Ninja nor do I know why SE balances the way they do. Going by fflogs it looks like Ninja was top in ShB and even in EW it's not far from the top at all, what's the problem? All the melee look very close right now, Ninja isn't being taxed hard.

As for SMN's healing: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/f3PbV...aling&source=7 is one example - 26% overhealing on Everlasting Flight, not bad at all for a hot. Just pick a boss select Summoner and sort by healing for more examples. I haven't been raiding with SMN so I can't speak on boss dmg timings with Phoenix but it's definitely not as useless as people make it out to be.

Magick Barrier doesn't actually heal, its reliant on healers to make use of its utility while SMN is not - Magick Barrier should actually buff SMN's healing.



SMN's heals are absolutely free, you don't choose between an attack or a heal you do both and Phoenix's potencies were buffed so it's overall stronger than Bahamut despite having 1 less attack.

I just say I disagree and I still think buffs are just as much utility as anything else. I also think the devs think this also but who really knows.

As for smn I still think 26% overhealing for a utility is too much. You're right magick barrier does rely on healers that is why you HAVE to talk to your healers and ask them where they want it. Plus it is also free so doesn't cost anything and you get to choose when to use it. So what it relies on healers, still boosts healers heal and that is their job after all to heal and also it reduces magic dam. Healing imo shouldn't be part of a dps job anyway. That is why I think they should delete the casters rezz also since I think that should only be a healers responsibility, not a dps'. At most I think the rez should have a long cooldown for casters. Also, ask any smn about everlasting flight or rekindle they all basically tell you the same, They want the choice to use it and not be part of their rotation. Utility that allows the user to decide when or where to use it is always much better than any utility that is locked behind part of their rotation and they have no say when to use it.

[Tulzscha]

As for smn I still think 26% overhealing for a utility is too much. You're right magick barrier does rely on healers that is why you HAVE to talk to your healers and ask them where they want it. Plus it is also free so doesn't cost anything and you get to choose when to use it. So what it relies on healers, still boosts healers heal and that is their job after all to heal and also it reduces magic dam. Healing imo shouldn't be part of a dps job anyway. That is why I think they should delete the casters rezz also since I think that should only be a healers responsibility, not a dps'. At most I think the rez should have a long cooldown for casters. Also, ask any smn about everlasting flight or rekindle they all basically tell you the same, They want the choice to use it and not be part of their rotation. Utility that allows the user to decide when or where to use it is always much better than any utility that is locked behind part of their rotation and they have no say when to use it.

26% overhealing for a 21s raid wide heal over time that you have no control over. That's actually really good, hots always overheal. Probably the healers in that group were working around it.

Non-damage utility for dps in general I think is good, healing and rezzing specifically should be limited but isn't bad. It's nice to have if the healers go down or are struggling, that's the main point since there's only a couple of them. Too much healing and you're stepping on their toes, yeah. So RDM has to sac dps to heal and SMN can't control when they heal; it's not perfect design but it's not useless either. SMN's heals may be uncontrollable but they last so long they're bound to do something lol unless healers ignore it and force it to overheal but that's on them.

I agree that SMN would be better with more agency over its actions, there's a lot wrong with SMN's design imo.

[Sequora]

Why not just have summoning phoenix give a “rekindle ready buff”, similar to red mage “ver ready buff”. Summoning phoenix would give you the ability to use rekindle sometime in the next 2 minutes.

As far as I can tell, rekindle originates from the summoner anyways.

[Aikaal]

SMN's heals are absolutely free, you don't choose between an attack or a heal you do both and Phoenix's potencies were buffed so it's overall stronger than Bahamut despite having 1 less attack.

"free"



The problem is when you have no control on it, it'd be nice on P1S if I could use it on warden's wrath during intemperence but Phoenix never comes at that time. Problem is where everybody has so much support that its not even needed.