P1N Warrior solo kill

[J-Reyno]

Please post the all healer no tank clear of any current savage floor.

Oh you can't? Maybe that's because this game rewards what tanks can do -far more- than it rewards what healers can do.

I'll do that as soon as you show me how gimmick all tank no healer runs have become the standard for the game's content and healers are struggling to find groups because of it.

You can't and you won't.

[Ixon]

snip

For all you say, I still have no idea what you want to be done. Do you want every single piece of content to be solo-able by everyone? Or people so nerfed it can't be solo'd by anyone? Do you want fights changed or jobs? What are you asking for? Cause certain jobs being able to do X happens in all content, in every game, all the time. You are playing this victim card like you and healers like you are being targeted and treated unfairly.

Again, it's not like the fights are designed to completely remove healers, but you make it seem like it is. The fact that any current fight can be cleared without a healer is an oversight at the very least. What I find funny is the tanks weren't the main reason why the two EX's were cleared without a healer, it was a mixture of Reaper and Dancer healing kits to keep the dps alive enough to meet the DPS check. Because if it was any other dps comp besides Reapers and Dancers, too many DPS would have died and they would have enraged.

So I'm going to ask for probably the fourth time in this thread: why are tanks allowed to flip the concept of teamwork or the trinity the bird

To answer: No tank asked SE to be the only one to solo content(even though WAR has been able to solo content since HW, it's not like this is news), and to answer your other question, no tank would give any though if a fight could be cleared without a tank. Not a one would care. The sole reason why it's not a thought in the world for current content is SOLELY because Tank Busters exist in every. single. fight. There is no if, ands, or buts about it. There are solo tank/solo heal clears of P1S, and there are also DPS deaths due to not being able to work around the tank busters. So if you are asking for a mandatory healer mechanic to be copy/pasted into every fight so you have to take a healer no matter what, be my guest.

That's an issue entirely separate from the laughable idea earlier in the thread that healers "should" do less damage than tanks because their contribution is "more valuable", when literally every single piece of evidence in content as designed shows that healers are the LEAST valuable members of any given party.

I don't know if this is news to you, but healers and tanks are always the first to be cut, it's just that tanks are cut less due to unavoidable tank busters that would result in the death of a dps or healer if not for two tanks. Here is another thing, every non standard kill is either for fun, or for a challenge, and that's it. A majority of the time, they are so un-optimal that once they are proven that they can be done they are hardly re-done as they are usually so un-optimal to do so. You say healers are the LEAST valuable, when if chosen, 99% of players would sacrifice a tank or dps before a healer. Most wipes happen from all healers being dead and the damage killing the party. So I really don't know why you downplay such an important role.

[Ixon]

That's essentially the point of this entire thread.

That tanks are essentially Gods right now. They can cover every single role and have no weaknesses other than content takes them a bit longer to do on their own.

No other Role can say that.

I don't know know if taking over hour to do a normal fight that has 3 whole mechanics in it that normally takes 6 minutes is "godlike" status. If tanks were so godlike, the standard would be 8 tanks no matter what, but it's not, because it's super suboptimal. I think the only time it was ever the optimal choice was taking 4 WARs to Rathalos EX to reduce wipes.

[Lasciare]

All of these issues can be readily solved with two simple additions:

1. Significantly higher outgoing damage so tanks simply can't solo content like this, specifically Normal modes. It's absurd that even in a damage I can take a split stack solo and not even lose half my HP with only Reprisal running. That should outright kill me if not come incredibly close with big CDs running. The fact it doesn't is a far bigger issue than tank self-healing. They shouldn't be in a position to heal that much to begin with.

The damage output last expansion was slow and lacking. This expansion is not only worse, but they have given several jobs some hefty healing and mit skills. Not to mention some of the bonkers skills healers got. The content just isn't demanding enough from healers. Tank self healing honestly wouldn't seem that strong if content actually felt like it hurt.

2. Put enrages back in normal modes. There's absolutely no reason P1N should last an hour, or that any fight can be a 25+ minute struggle with 40 raises being thrown out. With a hard enrage, you completely nullify tanks even attempting something like this without neutering their gameplay. Once again, the solution shouldn't be to make tanks glorified DPS who occasionally press Vengeance if even that. It should be to fix the issue so both tanks and healers actually have a purpose beyond being weaker damage dealers.

Agree. Each job is only as important as an instance makes them. If there is no threat of enrage, only an instance timer, the DPS loses its importance. If there is no spike damage, there's no need for a tank. If there's not enough damage going out over all, the healer isn't needed. Yea, a lot of the jobs need tuning right now, but this specific issue has less to do with job design, I feel, and more to do with battle design not properly tuning for where the jobs are now.

[ssunny2008]

I don't know know if taking over hour to do a normal fight that has 3 whole mechanics in it that normally takes 6 minutes is "godlike" status. If tanks were so godlike, the standard would be 8 tanks no matter what, but it's not, because it's super suboptimal. I think the only time it was ever the optimal choice was taking 4 WARs to Rathalos EX to reduce wipes.

Having 8 tanks especially WARs IS the optimal choice. No matter what, it´s pretty much impossible to wipe. Hey, there are DPS checks in savage. But in normal? Hell i see more than enough ppl underperforming and dieing, even lately there was a BRD in savage doing less damage than the tanks. So why not playing tanks only with an easy rotation, tons of defs and self-heal? It would be braindead mode.
But of course... there are still some confident players which don´t have to rely on some broken stuff. That´s the only reason why it´s not a thing. Such players prefer to go in with 1-2 tanks and 6 DPS.

[KariTheFox]

Having 8 tanks especially WARs IS the optimal choice. No matter what, it´s pretty much impossible to wipe. Hey, there are DPS checks in savage. But in normal? Hell i see more than enough ppl underperforming and dieing, even lately there was a BRD in savage doing less damage than the tanks. So why not playing tanks only with an easy rotation, tons of defs and self-heal? It would be braindead mode.
But of course... there are still some confident players which don´t have to rely on some broken stuff. That´s the only reason why it´s not a thing. Such players prefer to go in with 1-2 tanks and 6 DPS.

You have a strange definition of "optimal" if you think "impossible to wipe = optimal"

(also what does some BRD underperforming at thier role have to do with anything?)

[Shurrikhan]

If you watch the clears, the only job with 100% free sustain is WAR. The PLD had to Clemency(dps loss) and the GNB had to 1-2 Brutal Shell spam(dps loss). Not to mention DRK's TBN is only free if the bubble pops otherwise it's also a dps loss.

We're not talking tank-solos, a form of side content utterly unaccounted for, alone here.
Find me an example of a decent DRK in Savage not popping their bubble. (Good luck; there are none.)
Find me a decent GNB in Savage who only takes their combo as far as Brutal Shell. (Good luck; there are none.)

Until then, the fact that tanks can sacrifice the majority of their damage to spam their combo only up to Brutal Shell for incredibly low returns in any real content has no bearing on the conversation of relative role strength.

ofc tank can do content alone and no other role can do that (yet ?) it doesn't mean they're OP, it only mean the fight are bad designed and can be cheesed by a single role.

If the content can be cheesed only by a single role, Ockham's Razor cuts both ways; the role has as high a chance to be the issue as the content, and correcting the single role's interactions would be the more efficient path to a solution than, by adjusting the content, changing all three roles' interactions with that content.

[Ixon]

Find me an example of a decent DRK in Savage not popping their bubble. (Good luck; there are none.)

First. Lol.

Second, I can tell you what I can find. Over a thousand parses on any given fight where the healers did not GCD heal once. That has nothing to do with the tank role. Know how I know that? Because people were oGCD only healing Savage fights last expansion as well, where the healing and mitigation from most of the tanks were arguably worse. I can tell you right now you could cut the current healing and mitigation from tanks in half and it would not change a single thing other than maybe making it harder for tanks to solo clear content.

Third, I don't think you understand what "cheesing" something is. Using tank invulns to bypass mechanics is cheesing. Using just Macrocosmos to bypass a healing check in P3S is cheesing. Taking an hour to do a fight isn't cheeseing the fight, it's taking the long way to do something very simple for the challenge of it.

And to be clear, I don't care if a tank can or cannot solo a normal mode because that sounds boring and would take a lot of time so I wouldn't be doing it anyway. If you want the devs to add some artificial requirement for healers similar to tank busters for tanks and dps checks/enrages for dps then sure add away. It won't change the way I play. What I do care about is when people fail to understand that the undertuned fight designs dishing out lackluster damage is the main reason why no healer runs of current fights are even occurring. Look at the no healer EX1. There are only about 4 AoE's in the whole fight. So few and non threatening that the group could kitchen sink every AoE and with 4 Curing Waltz's clear no problem. If anything the tanks in both the EX1 and EX2 had a HARDER time staying alive than the 6 dps, often requiring Clemencies from the PLD.

[Shurrikhan]

Taking an hour to do a fight isn't cheeseing the fight, it's taking the long way to do something very simple for the challenge of it.

Never said it was. I merely pointed out that a single role's ability to cheese content isn't any more likely to be a problem with content than a problem with that role.

Again, the head of the conversation (two pages back, though stemming from Semirhage's post on page 18) into which you've inserted yourself was on healer/tank throughput generally, not just in regard to solo clears.

I think the crucial part here is whether Warrior being able to solo something like P1N reduces or increases available content.

A solo run of P1N isn't going to replace a normal, far faster run that Warrior could still get instant queues for almost any time of night. As such, it merely adds a form of side-content. Nor is Warrior so advantaged in that core/real content as to bar other tanks from it, reducing available content for those who want to tank but do not want to play Warrior.

It's a bit odd that said side-content is limited to a single tank, with no other tank having their answer to it or similar advantage in other turns, but that's still more just-for-fun side-content than we had before with no loss to real content or job choice therein.

To consider an opposite example, though, Bloodwhetting's scaling procedure could outright destroy Savage dungeons or the like, if they were a thing, making them (especially, their trash) very difficult to balance for both Warrior and the non-Warrior tanks; if merely challenging for non-Warriors, trash would be pitiful to Warriors, while if trash were challenging even to Warriors, it'd likely wall off many non-Warrior tank players. That'd be something that, contextually (i.e., if SE ever wanted to add content variety beyond GS mini-games), would require fixing. (Even now, Bloodwhetting's AoE scaling is beyond ridiculous -- rather than merely mildly OP, as it was in ShB -- and probably should be reeled back to merely relatively overpowered.)

[Ixon]

Never said it was. I merely pointed out that a single role's to cheese content isn't any more likely to be a problem with content than a problem with that role.

Again, the head of the conversation (two pages back, though stemming from Semirhage's post on page 18) into which you've inserted yourself was on healer/tank throughput generally, not just in regard to solo clears.

That.. doesn't make sense. The ability for any current content for be soleable is almost 100% on the fight. Hence why only SOME of the current content is soleable instead of ALL.

The fight design is the reason why some fights cannot be solo tanked, or solo healed, or whatever.