P1N Warrior solo kill

[Aegis_Harvey]

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

At any rate, I think the crux of it is this; why not, instead of pushing for tanks to have their fun spoiled, invest all that time and spite into getting healers to a position where they get to enjoy themselves more fully? Punishing tanks for having fun is dumb.

Well put. We shouldn't jump to hasty conclusions that the WAR (PLD/GNB) is the problem when we see this video, when it could be something wrong with the boss, or the state of healing in general not just for tanks (sans DRK). The lazy way to "fix" this problem is to make sure every boss has an enrage or nerf tank healing down to DRK levels, but I think it's more likely the problem is the current difficulty curve for expert dungeons to PN/EX Trials to PS is way too forgiving on healers when things are going right, at least in the middle of that curve where the majority of players are going to sit. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I'd happily let the devs take away my broil and DoT and let my chocobo do all the damage if it meant I could spent all of my time in a party healing and buffing.

[Venks]

Well put. We shouldn't jump to hasty conclusions that the WAR (PLD/GNB) is the problem when we see this video, when it could be something wrong with the boss, or the state of healing in general not just for tanks (sans DRK). The lazy way to "fix" this problem is to make sure every boss has an enrage or nerf tank healing down to DRK levels, but I think it's more likely the problem is the current difficulty curve for expert dungeons to PN/EX Trials to PS is way too forgiving on healers when things are going right, at least in the middle of that curve where the majority of players are going to sit. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I'd happily let the devs take away my broil and DoT and let my chocobo do all the damage if it meant I could spent all of my time in a party healing and buffing.

I'm super biased because I solo'd both P1N and P2N myself, but I think normal raids are fine where they are difficulty wise. To me it seems like this game is balanced with the idea that most players will not be playing optimally. Maybe they don't know their rotations or maybe they keep dying to certain mechanics. But the more skilled party members can usually do what needs to be done to overcome the encounter even with less skilled party members. I do think the main draw back to this type of design is that when the party if full of skilled players, it leaves healers with little to do. I personally would love to see healers be given more offensive abilities so that they have something interesting to do when healing isn't necessary.

Though I definitely don't want to see healers become weaker-DPS. I think that's where the Savage content should be bringing more of the difficulty and requiring healers to use their full kits to keep the party alive.

[Ixon]

I'm super biased because I solo'd both P1N and P2N myself, but I think normal raids are fine where they are difficulty wise. To me it seems like this game is balanced with the idea that most players will not be playing optimally. Maybe they don't know their rotations or maybe they keep dying to certain mechanics. But the more skilled party members can usually do what needs to be done to overcome the encounter even with less skilled party members. I do think the main draw back to this type of design is that when the party if full of skilled players, it leaves healers with little to do. I personally would love to see healers be given more offensive abilities so that they have something interesting to do when healing isn't necessary.

Though I definitely don't want to see healers become weaker-DPS. I think that's where the Savage content should be bringing more of the difficulty and requiring healers to use their full kits to keep the party alive.

This all started back in Coil, when people who were casual with the game heard about how amazing the story in Coil was, but could only really experience it if you did the raids that were akin to a Savage difficulty. So, they added in the Normal modes, so those could still experience the story of the raids without needing to do the hardest raids. However, because the Normal raids are built for the most casual of player, they generally make them laughable even for mediocre players. AoE damage is pitiful, tank busters are shrugged off, and DPS checks are non-existent for a majority of the Normal fights, which is why I don't think we should really be taking any achievement done in Normal modes too seriously, as they are made for baby's first raid. The EX's and Savage modes that are done without any role should be looked at and given a balance adjustment to necessitate every role like all the fights should.

Tin foil hat on; I feel SE intentionally made the majority of normal content even easier this expansion than past ones to accommodate the flood of new players(not just refugees). You can see this clearly in the dungeons, where there isn't a single dungeon this expansion where you can pull more than two mobs, something that is always a point of contention between casual/new and hardcore/veteran players. I think the most you can do in any of the dungeons is the two mob packs plus one "roamer" on the two wall to walls before the third boss in the lvl81 dungeon, but that's it. Compare that to the beginning of Holminster Switch, or the pulls in between the first and second mini boss of Ravel's Keep, or the possible four pack pull in the beginning of Mt. Gulg. Not even the 90 dungeons are a challenge, where the hardest part is healers not knowing they can Esuna the debuff on the 2nd boss or heal up the Doom debuff on the 3rd boss of the lvl90 story dungeon. The blatant lack of actual difficulty in any of the dungeons, or any of the normal raids(P3N can catch you off guard if you aren't paying attention at least) to me seems like a design choice given the popularity of the game, which is causing the "Tanks are too strong", "Healers kits too bloated/unnecessary", etc discussions.

[Venks]

This all started back in Coil, when people who were casual with the game heard about how amazing the story in Coil was, but could only really experience it if you did the raids that were akin to a Savage difficulty. So, they added in the Normal modes, so those could still experience the story of the raids without needing to do the hardest raids. However, because the Normal raids are built for the most casual of player, they generally make them laughable even for mediocre players. AoE damage is pitiful, tank busters are shrugged off, and DPS checks are non-existent for a majority of the Normal fights, which is why I don't think we should really be taking any achievement done in Normal modes too seriously, as they are made for baby's first raid. The EX's and Savage modes that are done without any role should be looked at and given a balance adjustment to necessitate every role like all the fights should.

Tin foil hat on; I feel SE intentionally made the majority of normal content even easier this expansion than past ones to accommodate the flood of new players(not just refugees). You can see this clearly in the dungeons, where there isn't a single dungeon this expansion where you can pull more than two mobs, something that is always a point of contention between casual/new and hardcore/veteran players. I think the most you can do in any of the dungeons is the two mob packs plus one "roamer" on the two wall to walls before the third boss in the lvl81 dungeon, but that's it. Compare that to the beginning of Holminster Switch, or the pulls in between the first and second mini boss of Ravel's Keep, or the possible four pack pull in the beginning of Mt. Gulg. Not even the 90 dungeons are a challenge, where the hardest part is healers not knowing they can Esuna the debuff on the 2nd boss or heal up the Doom debuff on the 3rd boss of the lvl90 story dungeon. The blatant lack of actual difficulty in any of the dungeons, or any of the normal raids(P3N can catch you off guard if you aren't paying attention at least) to me seems like a design choice given the popularity of the game, which is causing the "Tanks are too strong", "Healers kits too bloated/unnecessary", etc discussions.

I completely agree with that assessment. I think Square/YoshiP wants the game to be approachable for everyone, even those who are really only here for the story. And yeah the dungeons in this expansion in particular have definitely suffered. It seems enemies in current dungeons are lacking more abilities compared to those in previous expansions, there's no need to interject or stun things. It would be really nice if there were Savage versions of dungeons so that there's more current content that asks players to utilize their kits.

[Deceptus]

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

They took forever and they were easy. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

At any rate, I think the crux of it is this; why not, instead of pushing for tanks to have their fun spoiled, invest all that time and spite into getting healers to a position where they get to enjoy themselves more fully? Punishing tanks for having fun is dumb

Yoshi-P flat out said in a live letter we will never go back to the more complicated healing DPS style of Heavensward.

Tin foil hat on; I feel SE intentionally made the majority of normal content even easier this expansion than past ones to accommodate the flood of new players(not just refugees). You can see this clearly in the dungeons, where there isn't a single dungeon this expansion where you can pull more than two mobs, something that is always a point of contention between casual/new and hardcore/veteran players. I think the most you can do in any of the dungeons is the two mob packs plus one "roamer" on the two wall to walls before the third boss in the lvl81 dungeon, but that's it. Compare that to the beginning of Holminster Switch,.

2 pack pulls have been standard since Stormblood (maybe even Heavensward). It's funny mention Holmister because it's literally 2 pack pulls. Mt. Gulg is an aberration when it comes to that rule which is funny because that's one of the more fun pulls.

[Ixon]

2 pack pulls have been standard since Stormblood (maybe even Heavensward). It's funny mention Holmister because it's literally 2 pack pulls. Mt. Gulg is an aberration when it comes to that rule which is funny because that's one of the more fun pulls.

Standard, yes. However, I could go through every single dungeon, from ARR to ShB, and I bet you 50-60% of all the dungeons will have instances of pulling more than two packs, even if it was two packs and a roamer. There is only 1 instance(two pack plus roamer twice before 3rd boss of the lvl81 dungeon) that I can think of for all the dungeons we have gotten so far in EW. Even starting from Stormblood, you had a wall to wall between the 1st and 2nd boss of Shisui, the large pulls in the beginning of Bardams Mettle, two giant packs that could be done after 2nd boss of Castrum Abania(including this cause the packs were like 10 mobs each), a massive wall to wall from the first and second boss in Ala Mhigo, and a wall to wall from 2nd to 3rd boss of Kugane.

The fact that we went from so many examples down to one that barely counts just further proves my theory in my opinion. Even if they wanted to eliminate them from the leveling dungeons to help combat the "veteran vs newbie"/"hardcore vs casual" conflicts when it comes to big pulls(we still see people asking for single pack pulls even today with how strong tanks and healers are), I would be ok it that IF they made it up in the lvl90 dungeons. Instead, we got no challenging pulls, no wall to walls, and some of the most boring boss fights outside of the bosses in the lvl90 story dungeon that even have a chance at wiping your group, I literally have to force myself to stay awake for the other two dungeons.

[Deceptus]

The fact that we went from so many examples down to one that barely counts just further proves my theory in my opinion. .

Respectfully, your opinion is wrong.

In ARR Wall to Wall pulling entailed pulling everything to the boss room then having a BLM use Sleep on them, a WHM Holy Stun, or have a tank just barely sitting inside the boss arena and someone pulling a boss to the tank.

Then after the initial 15s, the boss room wall went up, and the mobs would reset, kill boss repeat.

That is why the Devs put up artificial barriers. So we'd actually have to kill the mobs. They just chose 2 packs, maybe for reasons you said, maybe not.

[Ixon]

Respectfully, your opinion is wrong.

In ARR Wall to Wall pulling entailed pulling everything to the boss room then having a BLM use Sleep on them, a WHM Holy Stun, or have a tank just barely sitting inside the boss arena and someone pulling a boss to the tank.

Then after the initial 15s, the boss room wall went up, and the mobs would reset, kill boss repeat.

That is why the Devs put up artificial barriers. So we'd actually have to kill the mobs. They just chose 2 packs, maybe for reasons you said, maybe not.

I'm not sure how a fact can be wrong. It's not "my opinion" when there are significantly more instances in more dungeons pre-Endwalker where you have the ability to pull more than just two packs of mobs. That's just a fact. My initial and current argument has nothing to do with JUST wall to walls or from start to boss. My argument is that there was absolutely zero challenge in the 8 dungeons we have gotten so far in EW, to include but not limited to, having the ability to pull more than the standard two packs of mobs. The fact that people can easily mention certain pulls from some dungeons in any expansion that they had deemed more difficult than standard, or at the very least "wipeable", while not being able to mention a single instance outside of MAYBE the pulls after the 2nd boss of the lvl81 dungeon, goes do show an intentional direction of making the dungeons easier and more acceptable to more casual people from specifically ShB to EW.

Yes, I remember locking out mobs in Brayflox(HM) runs when speed killing the dungeon for tomes. However, that was literally the last time that was even a viable strat, and there were still multiple examples of more challenging, greater than 2, pack pulls like I have listed across the expansions since then. It is fairly undeniable, that the cumulative difficulty of all the EW dungeons is less to far less than that of any previous expansion. This wouldn't be too much of an issue in itself, but couple this with how stronger all the tanks became defensively, and how much more healing healers got, and you are left with a feeling of over saturated kits and some roles(mainly healers) feeling left out when there is hardly any content to challenge their abilities.

[Shurrikhan]

In ARR Wall to Wall pulling entailed pulling everything to the boss room then having a BLM use Sleep on them, a WHM Holy Stun, or have a tank just barely sitting inside the boss arena and someone pulling a boss to the tank.

Then after the initial 15s, the boss room wall went up, and the mobs would reset, kill boss repeat.

That is why the Devs put up artificial barriers. So we'd actually have to kill the mobs. They just chose 2 packs, maybe for reasons you said, maybe not.

If that were the sole reason, they would have just gone with mob-permeable (and player-impermeable) walls...

[Absimiliard]

Yoshi-P flat out said in a live letter we will never go back to the more complicated healing DPS style of Heavensward.

This does not mean improvements can't be made. Sure, it may never go back to what it was, but that doesn't mean healers are eternally condemned to tedium. But even if they truly are left this way, why drag other roles down too? Tank players didn't somehow convince SE to make healing boring.