P1N Warrior solo kill

[Oextra]

I honestly can't believe people are complaining about something that literally took an hour to do. Who cares that this is possible when it's beyond inefficient.

[Semirhage]

All I'm saying is, the two times in my recollection that players could do current patch content without a tank, it constituted immediate nerfs to the classes that did it. Tanks doing current content without healers? Without DPS? Solo? Crickets. This is a double. Standard.

[TheOperator3712]

You're posting this in a thread about tanks doing current extreme and savage content without a healer. What is this "greatest contribution to the party" you speak of? All this ridiculous healing potency is meaningless.
...
Oh that would be boring, godawful embarrassing design? Because that's how healers are designed. And for that garbage design, they're still the first role to get ejected from parties, because for all that yammering about healing being the "greatest contribution" it's not. You require a baseline, after which all extra healing is useless. Damage is the only metric that doesn't come hard capped on its usefulness, and tanks bring more than healers for no reason.

This thread is about a tank solo'ing a Normal raid, not no healer runs of extreme and savage. The latter of which is not happening, and the former requires extremely specific comps that rely on DPS to heal the party.

All of that extra healing comes becomes quite valuable in Savage and Ultimate fights. Healers still have more than necessary for farm yes, but during prog healing requirements are much higher due to player error.

Healers are of course not designed well in other areas; however your hyperbole and vitriol will not help them. Nor will posting in the tank section.

[J-Reyno]

You're posting this in a thread about tanks doing current extreme and savage content without a healer.

No, I'm posting this in response to YOUR claim that tanks have "really good" damage and healers can't even have decent damage.

Here it is again:

Tank:
> And let's also give them really good damage because it feels silly to not have decent output when you're chopping at something with a sword or axe

Healer:
> Decent damage? PREPOSTEROUS! You're the giggling one in the white dress, you can't attack things!

This bum idea that healer damage is somehow bad because it's a little lower than the tanks is the worst healer hysteria I've seen on these forums yet.

You're doing more than half the damage of dps jobs, only a little less damage than tanks, and that doesn't even qualify as "decent" damage for a role that doesn't require anywhere near half the effort for the damage as the others (and never will), can revive downed party members (unlike tanks and all but two dps), and has 10x the amount of healing and party mitigation as the other roles?

And the numbers I'm talking about are what healers are doing RIGHT NOW in current content. So healers aren't needed? Then WHO are these healers healing, exactly, and why? Because somebody's healing, and somebody's being healed.

We all know that healers and even some content could be better designed. But we're not going to sit here and pretend that healers are weak just because you feel like they should be doing as much or more damage than tanks for no reason.

[Deceptus]

This thread is about a tank solo'ing a Normal raid, not no healer runs of extreme and savage. The latter of which is not happening, and the former requires extremely specific comps that rely on DPS to heal the party

P1S was done by 8 warriors.

[BaconBits]

Personally I couldn't give two damns whether or not Healers do more damage than Tanks. I just want to press more than smash my Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis button so violently it tries to file a restraining order on me while reaching over to slap my single dot button twice a minute.

[Shurrikhan]

This bum idea that healer damage is somehow bad because it's a little lower than the tanks is the worst healer hysteria I've seen on these forums yet.

The idea as it's been presented here doesn't do the greatest job of explaining its warrants, but let's consider:

• Tanks' "tanking" throughput is entirely free outside of Clemency, which PLD is already balanced around never using.
• Healers' "healing" throughput is free only to a point, which varies rapidly by job.
• A tank is therefore putting out their full role throughput, at no cost to damage, and higher maximum damage, while a healer's damage comes at cost to their damage and they have lower maximal damage.

[ASkellington]

The idea as it's been presented here doesn't do the greatest job of explaining its warrants, but let's consider:

• Tanks' "tanking" throughput is entirely free outside of Clemency, which PLD is already balanced around never using.
• Healers' "healing" throughput is free only to a point, which varies rapidly by job.
• A tank is therefore putting out their full role throughput, at no cost to damage, and higher maximum damage, while a healer's damage comes at cost to their damage and they have lower maximal damage.

I'd like to add onto this by saying we aren't talking about damage numbers. We're talking about the number of damaging abilities.

In a trial/EX/raid/savage setting when you aren't mitigating for raidwides, tank busters, tank swapping or in rare occasions moving the boss what are you doing? Your damage rotation. And perhaps I'm wrong but its more than 2 buttons.

You have Continuation. You have Inner Release and Fell Cleaves, you have discount Inner Release and Fell Cleave (sorry DRKs) and w/e PLD has cause mine isn't past 50. Healers have 1 dot, 1 nuke for the vast majority of a fight. Sure there is Misery and Toxicon (which has issues), there is Assize, ES and Macrocosmos (and the latter two we mainly use for healing and not damage), and then SGE's other dps ability I can't remember. The melee one.

Point is, outside of AST cards we have 0 to do in our downtime between heals if the raid/trial is out of prog and everything is going well. Tanks, do not suffer this problem. And since tank sustain is high and outgoing damage is low, its only gotten worse.

I am not saying to nerf tank sustain. You can go through my posts if you like. I have 0 problems with tanks having high healing capabilities. I have problems with the devs tuning content design as if they don't exist and as if healers do not have a minimum of 8-10 heals across the board. What we've been saying, and the reason why this post was originally in the healer forums is that:

WAR/PLD/GNB being able to solo it with the sustain they've been given is proof that healing is too low.

[IttyBitty]

if you wanna have fun with a fun dps rotation, play a dps.

As a healer, you'll mainly have fun with your healing rotation which is your main job.

and atm you complain but sage have more than 2 buttons to dps and is fun to play on both dps and healing side.

Hey guys hold up I've gotta make sure that I don't mess up my healing rotation of *checks notes*....putting down asylum after the raidwide before going back to doing nothing until assize is off CD.

[Ixon]

The idea as it's been presented here doesn't do the greatest job of explaining its warrants, but let's consider:

• Tanks' "tanking" throughput is entirely free outside of Clemency, which PLD is already balanced around never using.
• Healers' "healing" throughput is free only to a point, which varies rapidly by job.
• A tank is therefore putting out their full role throughput, at no cost to damage, and higher maximum damage, while a healer's damage comes at cost to their damage and they have lower maximal damage.

If you watch the clears, the only job with 100% free sustain is WAR. The PLD had to Clemency(dps loss) and the GNB had to 1-2 Brutal Shell spam(dps loss). Not to mention DRK's TBN is only free if the bubble pops otherwise it's also a dps loss.

Healers healing throughput is about 99% free in most content, considering most content you can heal all the way through without needing to GCD heal once, including some of the current savage fights. Most groups don't even GCD heal at all. The only GCDing healing that is "mandatory" that I can think of are SGE Pneuma(dps neutral anyways), SCH Adlo(for crit spreadlo's), AST with Synastry(lol) and Neutral Sect(only works on GCD's, but most AST's don't even use it in most fights), and WHM Lily system(which everyone can agree needs a rework anyway).

Here's where I think the designed tradeoff is: Tanks do more damage because they cannot sustain the entire party by themselves, healers do less damage because they can sustain the entire party by themselves. Sure a tank could probably keep one person alive, but not for long. Think of healing like a utility and pretend we are all DPS(which we all are), in that case if you had a dps that could sustain an entire 8 man party for an entire fight, of course they would do the least damage. This is my theory, speculation, whatever, but it makes sense to me. This is, however, only relevant in High End content. Normal modes and dungeons don't really matter.

Now if healers just want more damage buttons, go ahead, God bless.