Does 14 Promote a Culture of Mediocrity?

[Kaurhz]

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Yes they do, obviously. But the reality is that many people are just not open to the idea of improvement beyond the bare minimum of minimums. US education is quite seemingly in a much better state then, many people get into the profession for all the wrong reasons, it was painfully obvious in my secondary years. - For reference, I've seen a teacher tell a student that they still get paid regardless of the result the student gets. As for my formal teaching, I've done several years of it in Higher Education, teaching anything from first year undergraduate students in my major, to teaching digital literacy and study skills, and on the other spectrum I've been involved with teaching digital skills to NEET. I have several certifications relating to the topics I teach, and 2 qualifications relating to education. Neither of these are relevant to the topic

The reality of the situation; regardless of whether you believe it to be the case or not (or whether you adhere to it), is that many people are woefully concerned with their time, both how they use it, and who they use it on. People want smooth duties, if they can help people along the way, then by all means, but the reality is this won't always be something that'll show in your duty. To take an example for myself, back in Heavenward someone was asking me why I wasn't using Bane on AoE packs (yes I know). When people are trying to blitz through these duties reading the tooltip and immediately putting it into execution on a routine basis just isn't happening in that dungeon, so I took the time, read the tooltip and facepalmed for an hour. Then in subsequent runs I started to use it until it naturally fit into muscle memory. Which need I might say took a few pulls. People at the time were equally pretty annoyed, and for obvious reasons.

The extent of me telling people not to teach is when they don't fully commit to it, either for that duty or whatever. It happens on a very regular basis. You cannot teach, expect people to immediately apply it then get frustrated when they don't. A lot of people in the community do this and are routinely upset by it and the general performance. I've reiterated several times that you only do so if you can commit and follow through without getting annoyed, because this is where stigmas and generalisations start that are detrimental to the community. Terms such as casual very quickly grow to have negative connotations. Equally so; it is unhealthy and unrealistic to expect that everyone can teach and is always doing so with the best of intentions in mind. If people want to teach by all means. But don't cry wolf when people don't learn within 10-15 minutes

Let me snag another example. If someone provides me with feedback, sure I'll be receptive to it and on the subsequent pulls I'll even try to apply it if I can, equally so for subsequent runs. This was a very commonplace thing to happen when I tried raiding in Eden's Verse. But if people, anyone does this and then bashes or berates the player for not meeting that expectation in a due timeframe, then the player very quickly becomes reluctant to forms of feedback. Why? Because to them they associate that experience with being berated. It has absolutely everything to do with intent. If you're trying to help and you're doing it with the goal of a faster or more efficient duty, you'll be woefully disappointed. If you try to help with the expectation that they'll learn fast; again, woefully disappointed. It is absolutely everything to do with intent and expectation, especially from the perspective of the one helping.

Again, I'm not personally attacking you, I'm just presenting you with logical reasons why not everyone should try, or why it can be detrimental to do so when you don't commit to the endeavour.

[Zsolen]

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No one should be shunned from teaching. Yes, some people can get better at it. Being toxic is not a good way to do it (I never said it was), but you should not cast doubt on those wanting to teach. Teaching in this game has been largely successful by many people, myself included. You are simply casting doubt at it's effectiveness under the guise that people don't really care. That's goes against basic human nature.

Someone not being receptive to being taught is not an inability to teach. It's stubbornness on the part of the other person. It has nothing to do with teaching or learning. Is it possible to get through to people? Yes. Does it always work? No.

Someone berating someone is not teaching them, and it is not common at all in this game. Although at 'higher' levels of play, people are expected to perform better, and it is the place where this is more likely to occur. Most gameplay is not 'high level.'

At more casual levels of play, people are expected to still participate and actually contribute in some way to the clear or win a match. Most of the toxic behavior and stubbornness to learn comes from individuals cloaking themselves in the mantle of 'casual' in order to protect themselves from being 'criticized.' It's an insult to people that casually play the game to be lumped in with those that get carried in the game, because they don't want to put in effort.

You keep using the second person in your scenarios.

[Kaurhz]

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They shouldn't but unless they have certain mentalities that are suitable to creating a tone or place that is conducive to such then some people either need to reshape their mindset or just leave it alone. I'm casting doubt on the basis that people create unrealistic expectations, do so whimsically and then get pouty when it doesn't work. Generally I would say developing it isn't entirely a bad thing but if people aren't open to the idea that they're wrong or inadequate at explaining something at the time then just.. It's a lovely notion and all, don't get me wrong, but if the objective is to actually do it effectively and produce results then I would beg to differ. There is a point where it's more of detriment than an advantage.

Someone not being receptive is for a myriad of reasons, including a level of stubbornness, but equally an incompatible and inadequate 'expression' of teaching. If you try and explain something to someone several times and they don't understand or show a level of understanding then you try and reshape how you've conveying that information. Explaining it? Try bumping up a GIF or even go on MS paint and try to do so visually. Certain pieces of information are better suited to this. 1+1 does not always equal 2, so to speak. Adapt yourself to it. Beyond a certain point people show reluctance but I see many people try to explain something, then explain it the exact same way for the next 4 pulls and wonder why they still don't understand - To many people the whole 'didn't explain it very well' doesn't really register as a possibility- and they immediately jump to the conclusion that they're dense.

My experience would be to the contrary, unless that particular duty was already stated for learning, It's definitely more common in higher-end duties but these mentalities only permeate in all fields of content, regardless of the difficulty of said content. People crying and being toxic because someone is single pulling on a duty. Being berated because people have some understanding that the Cure II proc from Cure I is a good idea. This almost stems entirely from the fact the designers have elected to maintain this particular piece of design. I've already unfriended several people because they whine about this. Again this permeates through all content regardless of the difficulty of said content.

and who determines what constitutes as a contribution, or sufficient enough? Not using cooldowns and core skills is something entirely different to someone that is single pulling, be it out of nerves or gauging the ability of other members in the party before pulling bigger, as just 2 common examples. Is it optimal or the best course of play? Of course not, but it's a contribution all the same, or is that going to be denied because it doesn't conform to a persons ideals of a 14 minute duty. I would wager that it isn't people cloaking themselves in the mantle of a casual but rather simply people just creating an inappropriate umbrella term to address those that aren't conforming to standards. This is why I mention it being attached with a negative connotation. - Many people on this forum have used the term casual to address less skilled players. Despite the very fact this game has many adequate casual players.

Irrelevant, really. I think it should be a given that I'm not necessarily addressing you personally but just the audience in general that are otherwise reading. The point still applies regardless, but I'll try to accommodate if it bothers you.

[Zsolen]

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It is not your place to tell people they cannot teach, nor can people not teach, even if they wanted to. Your definitions of teaching and learning are a bit archaic. Teaching should not and frankly cannot be restricted to the 'experts' or people deemed acceptable enough by others to teach.

The people that are problematic are the ones refusing to learn, not the ones that struggle. No one cares if players struggle in casual content, only when they don't try, afk, or outright throw. Most of the toxic behavior comes from this group not 'elitists.' FFXIV is not even close to being elitist. It is by far the least elitist MMO I have ever played, where very little of the toxicity is coming from 'the top.'

You should always refrain from using the second person in such situations, irregardless of whom you are addressing. Only use the second person when you are actually addressing that person, or your post will not be read the way you want it to be read.

[Kaurhz]

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Bit late to this one. But no it is not my place to do so but when someone doing so potentially comes at the cost of a group acting uncivil to one another, and if they cannot get around that without throwing around remarks then arguably they shouldn't be teaching regardless of your own personal feelings. I never said only experts should teach, but only those with a sufficient enough of a tenacity not to resort to crying after 15 minutes, or if it'll just result in insults being thrown around. By all means if you want to pat the back for people that do this and say it's ok, then by all means. But me? I'd rather these people just not until they have had a proper look at their own attitude. If you don't have enough tenacity to follow through without resorting to insults, and if you cannot adapt then don't bother - Again, if someone explains something several times in the exact same way as all the previous times and then gets angry and pretends like they could not have done better, nor done any wrong, then I'm going to just say no. Regardless of your own personal feelings on that matter. My definitions of teaching and learning I don't think have really been stated - Just the expectation that I have and the reality of the issues. Again, that people should feel so inclined that they cannot help people or give feedback on peoples' playstyles without the risk of being banned or sent to the GM is just weight towards this.

I wish this were true, and in many cases it arguably is, but as I have said people go into a duty with the expectation of a smooth run, when that is compromised people generally tend to get a little annoyed. There's practically threads and subreddits dedicated entirely to this. I would beg to differ that people do absolutely care. As you've claimed me to be moving the goalpost, equally players move the baseline for what constitutes as contributing, ironically I've had many cases where people have resorted to having fits because slow pulling, or have had fits because tank decided not to LoS to force mobs using ranged attacks all in 1 clutter. (Little throwback to the first pull of AV with the kets). I think the only thing I'm willing to even remotely agree on is that I don't think the toxicity or the majority comes from the top. Arguably I've actually found those players to be the most receptive or empathetic. But midcore? Now that's an entirely different slugfest of people trying to preach standards that they themselves cannot reach. Most of the toxic encounters I've had in this game have been related to this.

In any circumstance this thread has been derailed sufficiently enough on this topic, so I'm probably not going to bother even replying to the next, regardless.

FFXIV hardcore raiders are like wrestlers intentionally going into a kindergarten to beat up some kids then complain to the teachers why everybody here is such a loser

This is one hell of an analogy.