What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

Unfortunately the Scions have a very muted reaction to pretty much everything that works in their favour but is still very much a shady or questionable act.

As much as I adore Hien as a character, the story sure did gloss over the fact that he tricked the Xaela into fighting under Doma's banner. Not only that, but he chose to flood Yotsuyu's base which led to many of those inside drowning or being crushed by debris. Yet when similar tactics are deployed by the antagonists, even in the pursuit of protecting their loved ones and mitigating losses, they're framed as 'unforgivable'.

It's why I don't pay much heed to the supposed 'themes' of the game. They're rarely consistent and embraced or ignored based on whatever is convenient at the time. At the end of the day, both Meteion and Venat are responsible for the bulk of the tragedy and death in the game's story so to me, it doesn't make much sense for either of them to be treated so differently when characters with far less blood on their hands were treated with far more disdain.

[Rulakir]

Well obviously once the sundered reaches perfection we’re gonna have to sunder everyone again!

Yeah, I think the fact that Venat just kicked the can down the road is conveniently ignored. I'm loathe to mention it because I don't want to get into a theological debate, but I can't help but notice some parallels with certain Biblical stories where when mankind isn't behaving in a way that God approves of they get wiped out and have to begin anew. The problem is Venat is no god, she was just a person like everyone else who convinced others to give her the ability to elevate herself to 'supreme deity'.

It's why I don't pay much heed to the supposed 'themes' of the game. They're rarely consistent and embraced or ignored based on whatever is convenient at the time. At the end of the day, both Meteion and Venat are responsible for the bulk of the tragedy and death in the game's story so to me, it doesn't make much sense for either of them to be treated so differently when characters with far less blood on their hands were treated with far more disdain.

This, for a protagonist Hydaelyn has more blood on her hands than all of the antagonists combined except for Hermes and, by extension, Meteion. I frequently see people mention the WoL/Scions don't have a problem with it because she benefits them, but for how long? Ever since someone commented that the 8UC is a complete bad end for Venat I couldn't help but wonder if she'd sunder the world again if she had the ability. After all, the sundered were behaving similarly to the unsundered in striving to bring back the past over moving forward.

[Nabby]

Yeah, I think the fact that Venat just kicked the can down the road is conveniently ignored.

It's not ignored. Venat explains before we leave Elpis that she cannot go to the convocation for help because now Hermes is a member and she cannot let him find out the truth. If he does, he's likely to come to the exact same conclusions as before about how to handle Meteion. It's also very important to remember that the only reason the ancients survived the final days at all in the first place is because Hermes (as Fandaniel) engineered the plan to summon Zodiark and fight back against Meteion. Venat could not risk making an enemy of Hermes before Zodiark was summoned.

Before erasing his own memory, it's clear Hermes's goal was to test humanity fairly, and we have every reason to believe that Hermes would oppose Venat, because by escaping the memory wipe, she essentially "cheated." We also don't really know how long Venat had to act between the events of Elpis and the final days, so there's no reason to assume she had plenty of time to come up with a better strategy for opposing Meteion.

And finally, it's very much possible that Venat simply realised that Hermes actually has a damn point about the way the ancient society functions, and how even preventing the final days would not necessarily lead to a brighter future for a people that delude themselves into believing they live only "for the benefit of the star" even when they clearly all have their own selfish reasons to live. And the combination of being selfish (which is natural - one can only live for their own reasons) but also having god-like powers AND a a belief in the righteousness of using those powers to decide the fate of "lesser" creatures is not a good one. We see first hand how Emet-Selch views humanity as it is in its sundered form, despite us knowing as players that the people of the Source and shards are not without value.

1/

[Nabby]

It is clear that Venat does not agree with the convocation's point of view about it's importance over "lesser" beings. On the contrary, Venat does what she can to learn about us as a person, the world we live in and the people in it. She clearly empathises with us as explorers, sundered though we may be and does not automatically dismiss us as some lesser familiar but as a creature in our own right that actually isn't that dissimilar to the ancients themselves. In fact, she has the knowledge that the sundered WoL and friends are much more durable and capable than even an unsundered ancient in Lahabrea, Emet-Selch and Elidibus.

Despite that, Venat doesn't just give up on her own people and immediately sunder the world. She doesn't want to do that, and she pleads with the remaining ancients after Zodiark's summoning to change their ways because she knows if they continue down the path they're on they will fail. She doesn't WANT to believe that the ancients will continue to abuse their immense powers to alleviate their own suffering at the expense of others. She wants them to push through their despair and learn how to live with the inevitable suffering life will throw at them. But they don't.

And if you've ever dealt first hand with despair you'll know all too well that someone telling you "if you keep acting in despair, things will only get worse" doesn't help. Despair and suffering isn't something you can click your fingers and make vanish. But the ancients are powerful enough to cause irreparable damage to themselves and their world before they realise for themselves that they aren't making things better. So yeah, Venat does a terrible thing to them, and forces them to experience suffering without the physical power to fight back and destroy the star itself in the process. Because even though many will still suffer and ultimately fall to despair, it at least means those who do find something to live for and find happiness will not be destroyed.

Venat did tell the ancients of Meteion, which is why she had a small following the help her summon Hydaelyn, but they were vastly outnumbered and weaker in strength than those who did not heed her words and chose to follow Zodiark. Had she not sundered the world, the disciples of Zodiark would surely defeat them and proceed with their self-destruction.

2/2

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

2/2

A lot of your post is speculation and headcanon supported by very little. For example, we don’t even know if Venat told the ancients of Meteion. We don’t even entirely know if she told her followers, they just knew that Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution. We don’t even know if they knew of the sundering or that they would be sacrificed, as in the Anamnesis cutscene, they only lament the loss of Venat. As far as the sundered being more durable than Elidibus or Emet etc. I really not sure how you came to that conclusion. We needed higher up entirety help everytime we fought against them lol. Venat is, in the end, a hypocrite and a liar. She preaches about suffering and hope, yet she inflicted mass amounts of suffering on her own people and gave up hope on them. Her confronting the ancients after the final days already hit means very little. She could have prevented the event altogether. Instead she kept quiet, lied, and let it all happen from what we’ve seen. She was friends with Emet, an incredibly intelligent individual. You mean to tell me the two of them couldn’t have figured something out? If Hermes is a problem Pandemonium exists for the time being. There were numerous ways she could have gone about it.

[EaraGrace]

Interrupting the echo chamber rq.

A lot of your post is speculation and headcanon supported by very little. For example, we don’t even know if Venat told the ancients of Meteion. We don’t even entirely know if she told her followers, they just knew that Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution.

Oh come on. Really? They just happened to agree completely that Zodiark isn’t a perfect solution? Enough to argue against the Convocation? When we have Venat say word for word that she’s going to bring those who can be trusted “into the fold?”

You’re stretching believability for the sake of your own headcanon.

We don’t even know if they knew of the sundering or that they would be sacrificed, as in the Anamnesis cutscene, they only lament the loss of Venat.

They lament her having to be the heart, a job that requires one to remain conscious and able for millennia, as opposed to being asleep. Yes they were sad she had to suffer.

As far as the sundered being more durable than Elidibus or Emet etc. I really not sure how you came to that conclusion. We needed higher up entirety help everytime we fought against them lol. Venat is, in the end, a hypocrite and a liar.

Prove either. Or wait let me guess. You’re gonna post that convo in Heavensward regarding Hydaelyn and Zodiark again aren’t you? And just completely ignore three expansions of context. Yknow what, fine let’s make it a rule that if a character does anything like that scene, we can’t trust their words ever again. Let’s see how many sources of information we have left.

She preaches about suffering and hope, yet she inflicted mass amounts of suffering on her own people and gave up hope on them.

How many times must it be said that she doesn’t distinguish her people and the Unsundered like you do. She describes both the unsundered and the sundered as being humanity.

Her confronting the ancients after the final days already hit means very little. She could have prevented the event altogether.

How.

Instead she kept quiet, lied, and let it all happen from what we’ve seen. She was friends with Emet, an incredibly intelligent individual. You mean to tell me the two of them couldn’t have figured something out? If Hermes is a problem Pandemonium exists for the time being. There were numerous ways she could have gone about it.

Just throw Hermes in Pandaemonium, which is on fire atm, that’ll be great. Surely no problem will emerge when he’s needed to summon Zodiark.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Interrupting the echo chamber rq.



Oh come on. Really? They just happened to agree completely that Zodiark isn’t a perfect solution? Enough to argue against the Convocation? When we have Venat say word for word that she’s going to bring those who can be trusted “into the fold?”

You’re stretching believability for the sake of your own headcanon.



They lament her having to be the heart, a job that requires one to remain conscious and able for millennia, as opposed to being asleep. Yes they were sad she had to suffer.



Prove either. Or wait let me guess. You’re gonna post that convo in Heavensward regarding Hydaelyn and Zodiark again aren’t you? And just completely ignore three expansions of context. Yknow what, fine let’s make it a rule that if a character does anything like that scene, we can’t trust their words ever again. Let’s see how many sources of information we have left.



How many times must it be said that she doesn’t distinguish her people and the Unsundered like you do. She describes both the unsundered and the sundered as being humanity.



How.



Just throw Hermes in Pandaemonium, which is on fire atm, that’ll be great. Surely no problem will emerge when he’s needed to summon Zodiark.

They may not needed to summon Zodiark had she informed them of the threat BEFOREHAND. I’ve already given numerous examples of “how” she could have prevented the event. Considering how much you respond to me i’d assume you have my posts memorized by now, otherwise a brief summary. Tell Emet, a very intelligent man. Start honing their dynamis skills, using the facility that allows them to do just that. Step 3:Profit the end. I'd also like to request we dnot refer to other peoples opinions on the story as an "echo chamber." Seems a bit derogatory.

[Sicno]

How many times must it be said that she doesn’t distinguish her people and the Unsundered like you do. She describes both the unsundered and the sundered as being humanity.

Except when she calls us her "childs".

Prove either. Or wait let me guess. You’re gonna post that convo in Heavensward regarding Hydaelyn and Zodiark again aren’t you? And just completely ignore three expansions of context. Yknow what, fine let’s make it a rule that if a character does anything like that scene, we can’t trust their words ever again. Let’s see how many sources of information we have left.

To kill Lahabrea the aether in the eye of a dragon coming from another star and not affected by the sundering was necessary.

To defeat Emet-Selch and Elidibus it took a 9/14ths of a WoL plus 7 presumably sundered heroes from other shards (but who knows if "from across the rift" goes even beyond the sundered fragments of the Source, so each could be a "fully fledged person". But let's stick with fragments for now). Technically 16/14ths of an unsundered.

[Lauront]

It is clear that Venat does not agree with the convocation's point of view about it's importance over "lesser" beings. On the contrary, Venat does what she can to learn about us as a person, the world we live in and the people in it. She clearly empathises with us as explorers, sundered though we may be and does not automatically dismiss us as some lesser familiar but as a creature in our own right that actually isn't that dissimilar to the ancients themselves.

Yeah, partly because...

Venat: You know I am!
Venat: Now then, you are...?
Venat: I say...have you perchance come from the future?
Venat: I do not believe we have ever met, yet I sense my magick upon you.
Venat: Therefore if I wove the enchantment, I could only have done so at a later point in time.
Hythlodaeus: What manner of magick is this, if I may ask?

In fact, she has the knowledge that the sundered WoL and friends are much more durable and capable than even an unsundered ancient in Lahabrea, Emet-Selch and Elidibus.

First was severely weakened due to body hopping and was defeated whilst the blessing was active plus due to Thordan's presence as a primal. Second took 8 champions, all that built up lightwarden light, further soul fragment rejoining to wield that light plus the benefit of the Blessing. Third again took 8 champions and Emet-Selch's intercession. Thus the need for you to say "and friends" for the latter two in the first place... plenty of extrinsic help here.

I'd like a citation as to where she told any of the ancients about Meteion, because her faction does not mention it at any point during the Anamnesis Anyder scene. Even her moon janny is unaware of it. There is also no evidence she took on Hermes's view as such on creations. Her concern is specifically defeat of Meteion and avoiding the fate of the Plenty (which she feared would be the outcome of pursuing the perfection of the star.)