Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[MrJPtheAssassin]

SMN wasn't even very complex since Stormblood anyway because they ultimately got rid of how DoTs can be a nightmare during Heavensward and gave us so many QoLs to apply DoTs ever since.

The only thing that hindered it was clunky pet response and pet actions ghosting which surprise surprise, still exists in new 6.0 SMN. And no, this didn't add 'complexity' and people didn't like that aspect of the gameplay. It was an annoyance every SMN player wanted fixed out.

By the time of Shadowbringers, you have so much mobility that it's more convenient to play. (Though, Shadowbringers SMN is where it goes downhill for different reasons)

It wasn't a hard job to play. The people who complain either didn't bother to understand how the job works or was still stuck to thinking it was the weird mess it was during ARR/HW days.
The little amount of 'complexity' it had before is now gone, and now it's just boring.

Couldn't say it better myself tbh. When I see ppl say smn loss its "complexity" in 6.0 I am always left thinking to myself "was it really that complex in SB or ShB?" I started ff14 during SB and pick up smn right before Omega tier 2 was released(did msq and some of tier 1 as a blm and hated it XD). Now was it hard to learn smn in sb at first? yes, it was since you kinda had to do your own research, read the spells and get help from places like the balance some since the game did a poor job explaining the right way to play smn to a point. Either way, I personally fell in love with smn in SB, and to this day it's still my fav version of smn in 14. I didn't like ShB smn that much but I still played it and still find a lot of fun in it. Now though I have completely did a job jump over to rdm bc new smn is boring, mainly because there isn't anything to manage and there really isn't any optimization. At least in ShB there was some optimization in the form of learning different openers and adjusting your rotation to match the downtimes in fights. Now tho there isn't anything like that and it breaks my heart. So to the ppl who say old smn was harder and more complex, I truly believe you mixing up a higher skill floor for complexity and clucky pet ai for complexity. Was it harder to learn than most jobs? Yes, but was it more complex than most jobs? Not really.

With all that said I will say I like the new version of smn but it is missing those things that make it fun at higher-end content. It needs more decision-making in turn that makes have a more flexible rotation. Also, something to manage or build-up would be very welcomed. My hope is the devs look into this and correct it over the next two years or address it in 7.0. I will say I don't want another rework, I want this smn as the baseline and just improved upon

[Sequora]

SMN wasn't even very complex since Stormblood anyway because they ultimately got rid of how DoTs can be a nightmare during Heavensward and gave us so many QoLs to apply DoTs ever since.

The only thing that hindered it was clunky pet response and pet actions ghosting which surprise surprise, still exists in new 6.0 SMN. And no, this didn't add 'complexity' and people didn't like that aspect of the gameplay. It was an annoyance every SMN player wanted fixed out.

By the time of Shadowbringers, you have so much mobility that it's more convenient to play. (Though, Shadowbringers SMN is where it goes downhill for different reasons)

It wasn't a hard job to play. The people who complain either didn't bother to understand how the job works or was still stuck to thinking it was the weird mess it was during ARR/HW days.
The little amount of 'complexity' it had before is now gone, and now it's just boring.

I mean pet clunkiness in 6.0 is minimal lol. We barely have pets.

[dinnertime]

I mean pet clunkiness in 6.0 is minimal lol. We barely have pets.

The problem is, Searing Light, probably SMN's most important support ability, is tied to Carbuncle. So how often does Carbuncle appear throughout a rotation? A few handful of seconds.

Now it's EXTRA annoying to apply it than before when it was still called Aetherpact/Devotion.

Also pet enkindles still ghost pre-90 if your pet doesn't reach its target throughout the few seconds it appears.

While it is minimal, it's quite significant due to what action it actually affects, being Searing Light.

[Aikaal]

Because you can actually optimize on Red Mage and there's a skill ceiling to it.
There's more decision-making involved. There's a resource you have to manage. The rotation isn't one-note believe it or not.

The new SMN doesn't have those things. You can't optimize much, the skill ceiling is non-existent, the only decision-making you do is when to summon Ifrit, there's absolutely no resource to manage and the rotation is extremely straightforward (not like what it used to be.)

The only thing I would add that you can do is speed up or slow down your rotation for gains. I slow my Phoenix in P3S by 1 GCD for the darkflames. In theory, for DPS logs, you can quicken your gems before the add phase, suicide, get res (res sickness last 100s and add phase lasts about 110s which you delay for proper pot window anyways. FFlogs don't count add phase for DPS), have your res sickness drop after add phase and have a Titan + 4 festers + Phoenix prepared for the pot reopener. That is, however, the extend of the big brain you can pull on SMN right now. P2S is outrageously cancerous. The only way to have Bahamut follow buff window is to have like 2k Spell Speed.

What people usually do is use Bahamut before add phase and just ruin III mage their add phase, it's kinda silly. However, by dying and having Titan, you average 533.33 PPS with Titan + 2 Titan GCD so it's a significant gain to make it worth. I will say, however, that it's stupid. It's stupid and big brain. New SMN is kinda stupid anyways, a fitting way to handle things.

[dinnertime]

The only thing I would add that you can do is speed up or slow down your rotation for gains. I slow my Phoenix in P3S by 1 GCD for the darkflames. In theory, for DPS logs, you can quicken your gems before the add phase, suicide, get res (res sickness last 100s and add phase lasts about 110s which you delay for proper pot window anyways. FFlogs don't count add phase for DPS), have your res sickness drop after add phase and have a Titan + 4 festers + Phoenix prepared for the pot reopener. That is, however, the extend of the big brain you can pull on SMN right now. P2S is outrageously cancerous. The only way to have Bahamut follow buff window is to have like 2k Spell Speed.

What people usually do is use Bahamut before add phase and just ruin III mage their add phase, it's kinda silly. However, by dying and having Titan, you average 533.33 PPS with Titan + 2 Titan GCD so it's a significant gain to make it worth. I will say, however, that it's stupid. It's stupid and big brain. New SMN is kinda stupid anyways, a fitting way to handle things.

Interesting, but also yes that sounds stupid. I don't think most people will even attempt to do something like that anyway.

So basically the normal person at the moment has little to no options to optimize.

[Aikaal]

Interesting, but also yes that sounds stupid. I don't think most people will even attempt to do something like that anyway.

So basically the normal person at the moment has little to no options to optimize.

It is incredibly stupid, you're all doing this to get Titan which does bring a pretty good potency spike.

What people are normally doing right now is... after Bahamut burst before the add, the burn as many strong potency spells and simply Ruin III the entire add phase because Phoenix is stronger than Bahamut. (This is also incredibly stupid and even more braindead)