Current top 100th percentile on P1S since 6.08 buffs

[Kazimere]

snip.[/B]

I agree with most of what you’re saying, but MCH is already the top DPS for pRanged. It’s substantially higher than Bard or Dancer, actually.

The issue, is that BLM is WAY to high above RDM/SMN. It should be stronger, but not 1k aDPS. Rez is good, but it’s only useful if people are dying. Optimized groups aren’t dying.

No job should be 8-10% behind the top job in their role. ATM, that would be Ninja, Dancer, Bard, RDM, and SMN. People pay way too much attention to rDPS. aDPS is going to show you the viability of every job.

[Oxidized]

No job should be 8-10% behind the top job in their role.

Indeed, when the difference was 3% in Promise and casters had more parity with melees, it was a great, balanced environment. RDM/SMN were viable everywhere, but BLM was still the undisputed king of caster DPS.

However, I think you are selling the power of BRD/DNC short, especially in optimized runs.

[CKNovel]

I agree with most of what you’re saying, but MCH is already the top DPS for pRanged. It’s substantially higher than Bard or Dancer, actually.

It's normal that MCH, BLM and SAM are above other jobs pDPS wise.

1 - It completely ignores the buff you bring.
For example, DNC dance and the buff it gives to teammates? Ignored.
Songs by BRD? Ignored.

Using money, if you have 100€ in your pocket but lended 20€ to each teammates, pDPS would still consider you have 100€.

2 - It also ignores the buffs.
For example, you're getting buffed by DNC, you deal 13k DPS. That's your personal DPS.
Example 2, you're not getting buffed by DNC, you deal 10k DPS. pDPS doesn't care, that's still your personal DPS.

Using money again, you have 250€ but borrowed 100€ from each teammates. pDPS ignores what you ower and still consider you have 250€.

[Aikaal]

I think we should wait around 2 months so most top players have bis gear. Jobs without support usually perform better during first weeks. If you wanna have full use of raidbuffs, whole party need perform well. Thats why Sage may perform pretty well compared to something like astro during first weeks, but once optimization start, I don't believe Sage can compete against astro anymore.

To begin with, I don't think SAG as a barrier healer would fight against a pure healer for a spot.

We can assume 6.1 will come about that time and in certain situations, like RDM vs SMN DPS. There are pretty close so you can't really tell. That said, there are some clear anomalies. BLM t=doing 7% more than other casters. Top DPS being 12% above to worst.

It's normal that MCH, BLM and SAM are above other jobs pDPS wise.

1 - It completely ignores the buff you bring.
For example, DNC dance and the buff it gives to teammates? Ignored.
Songs by BRD? Ignored.

Using money, if you have 100€ in your pocket but lended 20€ to each teammates, pDPS would still consider you have 100€.

2 - It also ignores the buffs.
For example, you're getting buffed by DNC, you deal 13k DPS. That's your personal DPS.
Example 2, you're not getting buffed by DNC, you deal 10k DPS. pDPS doesn't care, that's still your personal DPS.

Using money again, you have 250€ but borrowed 100€ from each teammates. pDPS ignores what you ower and still consider you have 250€.

I do think "selfish" shouldnt mean they must do the top DPS. "selfish" means the provide no raid buff. They, however, enable raid buffs to be stronger and rDPS properly tax their share so it's fine. There are merits to say not to bring SAM+BLM+MCH in the same party but I honestly feel like it fill the flex spot just fine.

[Sunako]

To begin with, I don't think SAG as a barrier healer would fight against a pure healer for a spot.

Actually Sch/Sage is more than viable, but that was not the point of discussion

I mean jobs like WHM/SAGE/TANKS/BLM/SAM are independent to party performance while jobs like AST/NIN/DNC are heavily dependant on party performance. Dancer average dps was always lower in SHB too than other ranged, but in optimized settings they easily surpassed others because party dps heavily impact their own raid dps numbers. During first weeks people are still not optimizing much before everybody have bis gear. Thats why gearing up pure dps is more overall dps to the party and Black Mages may look stronger than they currently are. If Black Mage would not get buffed, RDM could surpass their dps with optimized settings(or be very close to it). I think that already happened before savage released. Current buff just guarantee their spot into speedkilling. I think it is okey because they do not offer anything to the party except damage.

[Kazimere]

It's normal that MCH, BLM and SAM are above other jobs pDPS wise.

1 - It completely ignores the buff you bring.
For example, DNC dance and the buff it gives to teammates? Ignored.
Songs by BRD? Ignored.

Using money, if you have 100€ in your pocket but lended 20€ to each teammates, pDPS would still consider you have 100€.

2 - It also ignores the buffs.
For example, you're getting buffed by DNC, you deal 13k DPS. That's your personal DPS.
Example 2, you're not getting buffed by DNC, you deal 10k DPS. pDPS doesn't care, that's still your personal DPS.

Using money again, you have 250€ but borrowed 100€ from each teammates. pDPS ignores what you ower and still consider you have 250€.

I’m aware of how it works. Within its role, MCH crushes Bard and Dancer. Crushes them. So, outside of optimized groups, MCH isn’t a bad job to pick. Could MCH do more damage? Sure, but what is the number? Phys range suffer no penalties. None. I don’t want to hear about RDM or BLM having tools that allow for them to be mobile. Those tools are pretty much on CD at all times.

At this point, MCH just needs to provide the same support as Bard/ Dancer.

[CKNovel]

I’m aware of how it works. Within its role, MCH crushes Bard and Dancer. Crushes them. So, outside of optimized groups, MCH isn’t a bad job to pick. Could MCH do more damage? Sure, but what is the number? Phys range suffer no penalties. None. I don’t want to hear about RDM or BLM having tools that allow for them to be mobile. Those tools are pretty much on CD at all times.

At this point, MCH just needs to provide the same support as Bard/ Dancer.

By that logic, this applies to BLM and SAM.
But again, is it the MCH fault that others are not playing well? Should you punish a MCH because of its poor choice of teammates?
"They suffer no penalty", no job suffers penalty. Don't even think of BLM, that amount of mobility is ridiculous. Melees? Pretty please, you have uptime 95%+ of the time, you will lose a grand maximum of 10 GCDs.

Plus remind yourself that BRD was already ahead of MCH when people were progging, therefore not optimized at all.


MCH doesn't have any utility, it should be much higher.
Or give it utility, but you would still need to buff its DPS. It remains a joke right now.

[Aiscence]

Black Mage and Samurai deserve to be the top 2's because they don't bring anything else to the table other than their personal damage.
Said that, of that "lower dps tier" starting from DNC downwards, MCH should be at that top, given it's the selfish dpser of that niche.

I don't see anything wrong with the 6.0.8 buffs other than MNK being unecessary and MCH being lackluster.

Oh so if mch should only be at the top of "physical ranged", then BLM should only be at the top of the casters, and not beating the melees, seems logical to me.

I’m aware of how it works. Within its role, MCH crushes Bard and Dancer. Crushes them. So, outside of optimized groups, MCH isn’t a bad job to pick. Could MCH do more damage? Sure, but what is the number? Phys range suffer no penalties. None. I don’t want to hear about RDM or BLM having tools that allow for them to be mobile. Those tools are pretty much on CD at all times.

At this point, MCH just needs to provide the same support as Bard/ Dancer.

The problem with that argument is that if day one a caster or a melee is already beating widely a mch: there's no point. On top of that, if you look at all the fights this tier: they have a gigantic hitbox or no positional even for p2s. The only fight with a "smaller" hitbox (and it's already big) is p4sp1 and there's one case that forces the disconnect? There's mostly no more positionals and even if you don't do any you'll still crush pranged and that is without the fact you could true north most of them. For a caster? Yeah the things are on cd ... but nothing prevents you to delay to use them for movement, if i'm spending 90% of my time on a savage fight on the ass of a boss, there's no reason to have that tax. "yeah but they have to plan so it's harder than a pranged", man every job have to plan on where to put their addle, tactician, swiftcast and stuff, that's no different.

[Raikai]

Oh so if mch should only be at the top of "physical ranged", then BLM should only be at the top of the casters, and not beating the melees, seems logical to me.

Uh, you're completely disregarding the fact that BLM is the least mobile job... The reason why the lower half of the chart is on a below plateau than the upper half is because those jobs are completely mobile and not needing to stay on melee range.

I'm not making a differentiation based on role type, but rather based on mobility and the fact that a ranged job will always be less risky to play because they can be anywhere.

[Aikaal]

Uh, you're completely disregarding the fact that BLM is the least mobile job... The reason why the lower half of the chart is on a below plateau than the upper half is because those jobs are completely mobile and not needing to stay on melee range.

I'm not making a differentiation based on role type, but rather based on mobility and the fact that a ranged job will always be less risky to play because they can be anywhere.

BLM not mobile? They have 2 triple cast, 2 sharcast that gives instant Fire III / Thundercloud procs, Swift cast, Quickcast Ice Paradox, Xenoglossy procs, Aetherskate to allies, Between the Leylines. Black Mage is showered with, on demand, mobility tools. Most of that mobility is tied to damage, Xenoglossy and Triple Cast so using those mainly for mobility will result in a minor damage lost since you're burst wont be fully built. Thats what separate a decent to a good Black Mage.

Strats are made for them to keep those tools specifically for damage. BLM opener burns both triple cast for a damage gain. They should be rewarded from not using their ability for mobility but for damage. That's why they should be higher but they shouldn't be this high, no.