So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Casualty]

Because as I stated earlier, not everyone is looking for a carry or to be lazy. Some people, even such as myself, will join a party to learn a fight. Maybe I didn't get a clear there, but I felt comfortable enough to move to a clear party because I now know all of the mechs and confidently feel like I can clear the content even though the party I was with was incapable of learning the mechs. By most people's definition here, I'm in the wrong because I haven't cleared the content and shouldn't be joining a clear party, but guess what, I still cleared it.

I went outside of how you wanted me to play. I didn't mold to how you wanted me to play, because one particular person doesn't make the rules. This is an online community where each individual pays a monthly subscription to be part of and only the devs/GMs should have a right to tell me how I spend my time during that subscription. This game is supposed to be fun, not like high school.

I guess my final point is this. You pay to be part of a community, not to make rules for that community. If you want to do that, I'm sure SE is hiring.

I guess I'm confused about your point. You describe a situation where a group of people established a rule about a clear party and you chose to do your own thing even though you hadn't cleared, admit that you might be in the wrong but it's okay because it worked out, and then describe that the moral of the story is that it's not about unilaterally deciding what's best for the community. Isn't that a microcosm of doing exactly that?

[Packetdancer]

This is why I am against DPS meters being freely used by anyone. I didn't ask you to monitor my DPS I didn't ask you to make sure I was doing optimal DPS. I don't want you to stick your nose in my business period.

I'm going to ask a question, and please don't think this is snarky or meant sarcastically; I really do want to pose it as a genuine question and thought exercise, especially since I don't know what the right answer is, or even if there is a right answer.

Let's say you're in a party to do a savage fight, and you're struggling a bit with the mechanics. You keep messing up one specific thing, and -- this being savage -- one person messing up can often mean the entire party wipes (because now someone takes two tethers/AoEs/strikes/Protean beams/whatever). You're convinced you can learn the mechanic with a few more tries, probably. It's been an hour, though, and the party's gotten frustrated with the inability to progress further.

Would you prefer that they just silently leave the instance and kick you from the party to find a new person? Or would you prefer that they offer advice on how to get through the mechanic?

(Again: I don't mean this facetiously. I know some people genuinely might prefer being silently dismissed and left to find a new party, rather than feeling like they were called up in front of the class, metaphorically, and critiqued.)

Now envision scenario two. You know the mechanics, yay! The party keeps making it to enrage! But they're making it to enrage with the boss still at like... 11% health. If that's happening without a whole bunch of deaths to mechanics, then it means somewhere, the party is missing the DPS needed to clear the fight. So unless something changes, it's mathematically impossible for the group to clear this fight. Would it be better to just keep pulling endlessly, hoping that somehow, more DPS appears? Even if you know it's pretty much doomed?

Now let's say you can tell it's the black mage. You don't even need a DPS meter necessarily; you can just see that the black mage is not using their mobility tools; when they need to move for mechanics, they simply stop casting, run around until they reach their spot, and only then start casting again. Would it be better to pull the black mage aside and offer advice? Or would it be better to just silently kick them from the party and replace them?

And I ask this genuinely, because I have also been the person who puts together a PF for a clear party before, and so who is the party lead and responsible for these sort of choices. Like, I'm honestly curious... if it becomes obvious the party will not achieve those goals for whatever reason -- failure to do mechanics, one person dying repeatedly, whatever; it doesn't have to be DPS-related -- is it better to ask if someone needs advice/help, even if that's unsolicited?

Or is it better to 'not butt in' and simply kick them from the party silently and with no explanation -- but also without potentially publicly embarrassing them by 'sticking your nose in their business' and asking what they're having trouble with -- in order to find a more viable party member?

I know that even though I consider myself a patient person, if it becomes manifestly obvious a group is not going to progress further in the fight but people keep just blindly beating their head against a wall for an hour and a half despite that... I admit, I can start to become a little grumpy around the hour-and-fifteen-minute mark or so, simply because I don't have infinite free time, and if I'm throwing that time at savage I want ideally to make at least some progress during that time. So I definitely do understand why, if it's obvious that a specific person in the party is functionally guaranteeing no further progress will happen unless something changes, people are going to want to do something to address that situation.

As noted elsewhere in this thread, I don't think an ACT-style DPS meter is the right solution (or even really a viable one) for a variety of reasons. But I also don't think "silently keep slamming your head into a brick wall even knowing the wall isn't going to crumble before your head does" -- i.e., keep doing pull after pull even when it becomes clear one out of the eight folks in a party is going to prevent further progress entirely unless they change something about what they're doing -- is necessarily the right answer either.

[AbysmalDuck]

You aren't even keeping a consistent argument, just selectively changing your points to fill this weird narrative that performance-based players aren't real players because only people who don't care about performance can "truly enjoy the game." This has been proven as false on multiple occasions, several times in this thread alone.



If you are joining a learning party to learn, there is no problem as long as you are at the prog point the party requires. No one reasonable has ever disagreed with this or claimed the opposite. You are quite literally lying by saying most people in this thread are claiming people can't learn.

And by the way, Duty Completion and Duty Complete are both very different parameters one can set for their PF, if the leader sets the party to Duty Completion it means that people who haven't cleared can join.


You are speaking for others and not even repeating what they have said correctly in order to create this weird delusion that other people are trying to strongarm you to play a certain way, asking people for basic participation and pulling their weight, something anyone can do easily, is not unreasonable by any means. If you acted like this in real life, people would find you weird, rightfully so.

You are correct, it is a community, therefore the community can set the standards by which individuals must conform to or be ostracized, that's how communities work. There is a reason why you aren't allowed to join savage/extreme/ultimate and just auto attack the entire time, which by your logic, would be perfectly valid to do if that's the playstyle you preferred.

The devs/gm's have the right to punish anyone they want for whatever reason they want, but that is the extent of their power over the community. Which is why players are allowed to foster the micro-communities they desire.

Honestly, you twisted so much of what I said to meet your delusion, that I'm not even going to respond to your points, but I appreciate the attempt.

[AbysmalDuck]

then don't join content that requires a specific amount of dps from your role???



by wanting accountability in high-end content and subsequently wanting to help someone that's struggling with it, the pro-parser people are ***holes?

Accountability is one thing. Perfection is a complete other. Even as I type this, this is in PF for Eden: Eternity:

""farm" | ds titan | any memes=kick+blacklist. KNOW THE FIGHT."

Maybe I do know the fight, maybe I don't, but what you are doing is turning people off from joining your party because I'm not trying to subject myself to this type of behavior. I realize this particular PF doesn't have anything to do with parsing, but this is the type of behavior I've witnessed in reference to parsing.

[kizumiayamame]

Long story short! I've transferred Data Centers, changed name, and changed race. Out for a new beginning! Nope! Not with these nutso/weird people who aren't even enjoying the game, whose sole vendetta is to follow me around, do player searches on my ID. Let's follow me to my NEW Data center, let's create similar names and flood the Lodestone, let's join their FC/cause trouble within the FC, let's follow them around in Lodestone daily and generally just prove to the community who you are in real life: A stalker. To be honest, I feel bad for any relationships these psychotic people get with, if they've ever been in a serious one with mutual love and respect. They need professional help. I've written TONs of reports, TONS of data, TONS of proof and SE has not done anything but just watch. SE needs to start making examples of these stalkers. Outside of the game, this behavior isn't tolerated! It's breaking the law here in the United States to stalk/harass someone and you can go to jail. Why aren't my stalkers in jail? Why aren't they experiencing the wrath of Godbert yet? I went to jail for violating the TOS, and it made me a better player. Why haven't they? When the cat is away the mice will play, and no GMs are doing ANYTHING about this- (Forum GM may need to transfer to the correct location, thanks)

Please stick to the topic I put in the OP. Detracting from the original topic isn't just a waste of time, it's also rude.

[Snorky]

I have a feeling you don't really do any of the content this thread is primarily about, and are under the misapprehension that people are looking for a license to harass others in roulette content.

Most people here are primarily talking about content that contains a "hard enrage", which requires a fixed minimum amount of DPS to either defeat the boss or progress to the next phase. In content like this, it's entirely possible for a single unprepared person to fully obstruct the progress of 7 other people. Being able to identify where that problem lies is vital to the defense of your own time and energy. It's not fair to expect 7 people to simply remain in an impossible situation on behalf of someone who is inadequately prepared for content they've voluntarily joined.

You are correct I do not do savage content or run with a static. And I understand responsible people will use a tool to learn and grow and help others. I don't dispute that what I do dispute is NOT ALL people who would use said tool to actually help another in a respectful way. What would happened and has happened in every MMO I have played is that tool is used to then beat others up and cause drama and even if you clear something they will and do go out of their way to be rude to others who are not doing optimal DPS or WE. The point being as of now it's a good thing people can be banned for opening their mouths to harrass other players. People can not be trusted to police themselves.

[Packetdancer]

You are correct I do not do savage content or run with a static. And I understand responsible people will use a tool to learn and grow and help others.

Honestly, if you don't do current savage/extreme content, I suspect this topic is largely irrelevant to your game experience. I don't think anyone's arguing that any tools for optimizing a group's performance should be applicable outside of current savage/extreme content. That's the only place that being really optimal matters to being able to get through the content in question.

In fact, I'd argue that's one of the benefits we'd see if Square-Enix came up with some official solution. Right now, people can use ACT to parse your dungeon runs, alliance raids, whatever else. If Square-Enix had an official solution to help optimize fight performances, they could restrict the use of it to content where it's actually relevant -- i.e., savage or extreme trials.

[Caurcas]

Cast aside your fears of judgment and just do. Get good and ram it down and assert your superiority instead of cowering and whining about people being mean. Strip away the distance between and become equal. Cast them down through strength. Seize opportunity instead of reinforcing a culture of cowardice.

[Snorky]

Let's say you're in a party to do a savage fight, and you're struggling a bit with the mechanics. Snipped for length

Don't misunderstand what I said please, if you are in a party to learn or if you have all agreed before hand I absolutely think as a static group you need that cooperation and give and take communication. I am totally not against that at all. What I am totally against is for it to be changed from how it is now, and I will tell you why. Because there are people out there who cannot be responsible with the way they express themselves. It would bleed into normal dungeons and to be honest I don't want to hear it from some random who is running a parse about so and so doing crappy damage and it would happen. There are crappy people out there and normalizing dps meters in this game would give them license to be jerks to others when it's not necessary.

I causally raided in ESO we cleared content with our measuring but I was in a great guild with a more than a few people who were willing to devote themselves to helping others without ever judging them. I have also seen the other side of that with people screaming and calling people names for not being up to par. It's terrible to wittiness someone being berated for a game. So in conclusion I no longer do that kind of content for one thing for me physically I can't react quickly enough and mentally I just play to have fun, wiping doesn't bother me I just get back up and do it again.

[Rilifane]

Honestly, if you don't do current savage/extreme content, I suspect this topic is largely irrelevant to your game experience. I don't think anyone's arguing that any tools for optimizing a group's performance should be applicable outside of current savage/extreme content. That's the only place that being really optimal matters to being able to get through the content in question.

In fact, I'd argue that's one of the benefits we'd see if Square-Enix came up with some official solution. Right now, people can use ACT to parse your dungeon runs, alliance raids, whatever else. If Square-Enix had an official solution to help optimize fight performances, they could restrict the use of it to content where it's actually relevant -- i.e., savage or extreme trials.

I would like something like that.
An official tool to gauge everyone's dps restricted to Ex/ Savage/ Ultimate. Meaning, it will not show anything or load any combat data unless the player is in an endgame duty. Harassment is still harassment and a bannable offense, so if someone does misuse it - report. They take those reports quite seriously.
A personal parser, that only shows their own combat stats and nothing else, would be great in other content though because people don't jump in Ex+ to learn their rotation, so having the option to keep an eye on their own performance -and only their own- would help, especially console players. They could practice on a dummy/ SSS or see how well they do in a normal raid when they need to play mechanics and work with that information.

And no, people will not suddenly go around asking for screenshot proof that someone hit a certain number for a Sastasha run because I can already smell that argument coming from someone.