So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Packetdancer]

This is why I am against DPS meters being freely used by anyone. I didn't ask you to monitor my DPS I didn't ask you to make sure I was doing optimal DPS. I don't want you to stick your nose in my business period.

I'm going to ask a question, and please don't think this is snarky or meant sarcastically; I really do want to pose it as a genuine question and thought exercise, especially since I don't know what the right answer is, or even if there is a right answer.

Let's say you're in a party to do a savage fight, and you're struggling a bit with the mechanics. You keep messing up one specific thing, and -- this being savage -- one person messing up can often mean the entire party wipes (because now someone takes two tethers/AoEs/strikes/Protean beams/whatever). You're convinced you can learn the mechanic with a few more tries, probably. It's been an hour, though, and the party's gotten frustrated with the inability to progress further.

Would you prefer that they just silently leave the instance and kick you from the party to find a new person? Or would you prefer that they offer advice on how to get through the mechanic?

(Again: I don't mean this facetiously. I know some people genuinely might prefer being silently dismissed and left to find a new party, rather than feeling like they were called up in front of the class, metaphorically, and critiqued.)

Now envision scenario two. You know the mechanics, yay! The party keeps making it to enrage! But they're making it to enrage with the boss still at like... 11% health. If that's happening without a whole bunch of deaths to mechanics, then it means somewhere, the party is missing the DPS needed to clear the fight. So unless something changes, it's mathematically impossible for the group to clear this fight. Would it be better to just keep pulling endlessly, hoping that somehow, more DPS appears? Even if you know it's pretty much doomed?

Now let's say you can tell it's the black mage. You don't even need a DPS meter necessarily; you can just see that the black mage is not using their mobility tools; when they need to move for mechanics, they simply stop casting, run around until they reach their spot, and only then start casting again. Would it be better to pull the black mage aside and offer advice? Or would it be better to just silently kick them from the party and replace them?

And I ask this genuinely, because I have also been the person who puts together a PF for a clear party before, and so who is the party lead and responsible for these sort of choices. Like, I'm honestly curious... if it becomes obvious the party will not achieve those goals for whatever reason -- failure to do mechanics, one person dying repeatedly, whatever; it doesn't have to be DPS-related -- is it better to ask if someone needs advice/help, even if that's unsolicited?

Or is it better to 'not butt in' and simply kick them from the party silently and with no explanation -- but also without potentially publicly embarrassing them by 'sticking your nose in their business' and asking what they're having trouble with -- in order to find a more viable party member?

I know that even though I consider myself a patient person, if it becomes manifestly obvious a group is not going to progress further in the fight but people keep just blindly beating their head against a wall for an hour and a half despite that... I admit, I can start to become a little grumpy around the hour-and-fifteen-minute mark or so, simply because I don't have infinite free time, and if I'm throwing that time at savage I want ideally to make at least some progress during that time. So I definitely do understand why, if it's obvious that a specific person in the party is functionally guaranteeing no further progress will happen unless something changes, people are going to want to do something to address that situation.

As noted elsewhere in this thread, I don't think an ACT-style DPS meter is the right solution (or even really a viable one) for a variety of reasons. But I also don't think "silently keep slamming your head into a brick wall even knowing the wall isn't going to crumble before your head does" -- i.e., keep doing pull after pull even when it becomes clear one out of the eight folks in a party is going to prevent further progress entirely unless they change something about what they're doing -- is necessarily the right answer either.

[Snorky]

Let's say you're in a party to do a savage fight, and you're struggling a bit with the mechanics. Snipped for length

Don't misunderstand what I said please, if you are in a party to learn or if you have all agreed before hand I absolutely think as a static group you need that cooperation and give and take communication. I am totally not against that at all. What I am totally against is for it to be changed from how it is now, and I will tell you why. Because there are people out there who cannot be responsible with the way they express themselves. It would bleed into normal dungeons and to be honest I don't want to hear it from some random who is running a parse about so and so doing crappy damage and it would happen. There are crappy people out there and normalizing dps meters in this game would give them license to be jerks to others when it's not necessary.

I causally raided in ESO we cleared content with our measuring but I was in a great guild with a more than a few people who were willing to devote themselves to helping others without ever judging them. I have also seen the other side of that with people screaming and calling people names for not being up to par. It's terrible to wittiness someone being berated for a game. So in conclusion I no longer do that kind of content for one thing for me physically I can't react quickly enough and mentally I just play to have fun, wiping doesn't bother me I just get back up and do it again.

[BigHoffie]

But you think this because you've played other games where it was allowed to call people's contribution into question... This has been made painfully, abundantly, clear that the problem representatives from SE have with parsers is not their use, but the harassment that goes with them. People do no say anything to anyone else about their performance in the content you're doing because of the harassment policy, not the parser one. Your constant whinging about "my levelling roulette is next" are completely unfounded and saying it over and over again won't make it right.

[Snorky]

But you think this because you've played other games where it was allowed to call people's contribution into question... This has been made painfully, abundantly, clear that the problem representatives from SE have with parsers is not their use, but the harassment that goes with them. People do no say anything to anyone else about their performance in the content you're doing because of the harassment policy, not the parser one. Your constant whinging about "my levelling roulette is next" are completely unfounded and saying it over and over again won't make it right.

Here is exhibit A

[BigHoffie]

Here is exhibit A

Exhibit A of what? People tired of you making up implausible scenarios in your head so you can whine about things that don't affect you in content you don't do? I hardly think I'm the first, maybe the most tired though.

*Edited in case you think I'm one of those people either doing that content or running a parse in roulettes. A cursory glance (ya know, doing any sort of due diligence before spraying the foam from your mouth all over these forums) would make it pretty clear I don't do either.

[Snorky]

Exhibit A of what? People tired of you making up implausible scenarios in your head so you can whine about things that don't affect you in content you don't do? I hardly think I'm the first, maybe the most tired though.

*Edited in case you think I'm one of those people either doing that content or running a parse in roulettes. A cursory glance (ya know, doing any sort of due diligence before spraying the foam from your mouth all over these forums) would make it pretty clear I don't do either.

There is absolutely no reason for you to be this agressivetowsrds me none. You are the very kind of person who would use these tools to beat others up. You can't even accept the fact that I have a different opinion than you do. I didn't make up any scenarios there are too many people who have had bad experiences because of this need to monitor others in a game. But hey I'm glad Yoshi P recognizes the fact people use these tools to abuse also and gate others.

[Rinhi]

There is absolutely no reason for you to be this agressivetowsrds me

I don't see any aggression, but I see someone having no counter arguments so they resort to cheap manipulation to stifle a discussion they themselves initiated to weasel themselves out
very nice of you to assume that they don't accept your opinion because, well, uh, you just know, right? can't go a post without demonizing some imaginary enemy to paint yourself in a good light
you know what? I'll even go so far to say that more people have had bad experiences with horribly bad and toxic players and their entitled attitude than people have had with getting shamed for their damage numbers
my proof? well, I just know

[Packetdancer]

Don't misunderstand what I said please, if you are in a party to learn or if you have all agreed before hand I absolutely think as a static group you need that cooperation and give and take communication. I am totally not against that at all.

I'll confess I did misunderstand you, yes; the discussion in this thread is predominantly about the content in which DPS checks are relevant (Extreme and Savage), so I took your "I didn't ask you to monitor my DPS or comment on my performance" remark in that context. I.e., as though you were referring to groups gathered to do Extreme or Savage content.

If you don't do that content, that's totally cool! But then I'm not entirely sure the objection is super-relevant when the argument is "there should be some permissible way to allow a group to measure their performance and work to improve it specifically in the content where that's crucial to clearing". If you don't do the content where it's crucial to clearing, cool, you're correct, there's no reason to officially support those sort of tools in any other sort of content; I think most of the folks in the thread would actually agree with you there.