Current top 100th percentile on P1S since 6.08 buffs

[Tulzscha]

Yes there is a first and a last.
But the last is a job that only brings DPS to the group. Imagine if a Medic in FPS had access to better guns than a Soldier?

I'm curious, which jobs does everyone think should be top and bottom three and why? Or should they all just be perfectly equal across the board?

It's true that maintaining uptime and hitting positionals isn't that difficult but the fact is they exist for some jobs and don't for others, not everyone's going to play perfectly and I would assume that SE balances with that in mind. MCHs don't need strategies built around them to do well and they don't require party members to play well and make good use of buffs. Healing utility from dps also isn't really needed at all, rezzing is nice to see more of a fight the first time but you're going to have trouble getting enough dps if people are dying all the time.

Imo it makes sense for MCH to be relatively low on the charts. Maybe not this low but what do I know (spoiler: not much). It certainly would feel better if the jobs were within 500 dps of each other rather than 1000+ but I'll not pretend to understand what goes on at Squeenix or why they do things, I'm merely trying to be logical.

In early weeks, where DPS actually matters, Job choice can decide wether you will clear the content or not.

I really hate this argument. You know what else helps clear content? Not dying is a big one. Eating food, using potions, slotting (good) materia, getting better gear, doing your rotation better, taking less damage so healers can dps more, and so on. Hell even some world first groups would rather have better players using jobs they're more comfortable with over whatever's topping the charts. Playing better >>>>>>>> job choice.

In any scenario where playing a different job would have made the difference between a clear and a wipe there are without a doubt a number of other things that could be improved, things that will improve with more time and practice.

Since we're talking about the first few weeks here I would also argue that jobs which require more effort to pull higher numbers would take more time to reach those higher numbers, whether it be developing uptime strategies or learning where it's safe to greed or what have you, things MCH doesn't need to learn like other jobs.

obviously players in the game for years can easily reach the skill ceiling.

You would think.

There are all sorts of people in the world and they always manage to surprise me.

[ForteNightshade]

That's not an absolute, people also design strats for ease of execution. At higher skill levels things like uptime are better handled but jobs shouldn't be balanced around the best players (nor the worst). Rdps also doesn't have to worry about positionals or target swapping for adds or bosses moving for whatever reason.

If you take all of that into consideration and say a melee could get (random numbers here) 6-8k depending how good they and their group are but ranged physical will almost always get 7k regardless, that's not meaningless until everyone's at a high enough skill level, which will also take time with new encounters. At that point you could say ranged falls behind but when everyone's that good does it even matter? As for how it all maths out in reality it doesn't look good in the parses but that's also incomplete information. Wonder if Yoship ever addressed this in an interview.

The problem with this example is there is never, ever a scenario where any of the Prange come remotely close to overtaking Melee DPS. E6 and E8 were the two worst fights for melee uptime last expansion, especially for Dragoon and Monk whose range attacks were either worthless or nonexistent. Despite being forced to lose several GCDs (or resort to their AoE combo) they both continued to completely dwarf Bard, Machinist and Dancer by a country mile. Dragoons could eat every single GCD loss to downtime strats and still beat all three Prange right now. To borrow your example, it'd be more akin to melee getting 7-8k depending on uptime and Prange getting 6.5k no matter what strats are used.

To point it bluntly, Prange would be an entirely dead role were it not for the arbitrary party bonus SE added to force their inclusion.

[LilyPendragon]

Job complexity shouldn’t dictate damage.

Why should a BLM or a MNK, or a SAM have to work far harder than a MCH to gain the same damage? If this was the case, nobody would bother bringing the harder jobs because they're much more awkward to optimise. Job complexity should absolutely play a role in damage, and it's pretty obvious that (aside from RPR) it does.

Should MCH have received some bigger buffs? Probably. But in absolutely no world should Machinist be doing anywhere close to BLM or SAM damage.

[Sequora]

ok here a question simple, we are all human, if you have two road for reach your goal, one is hard and take more time to reach it, while one is shorter and easier to use, which one you will use? human per nature will choose the easier path.
some reminder about stuff people tend to forget, while the 2.x period we did get some really massive trouble people tend to forget when people was saying no melee for raid because it's harder for them? or people saying no monk because no party buff?

finally, i will change your sentence into this: being easy mustn't give the same reward. because right now a looooooot of people tend to say we don't want difficulty to reward a better dps, but is that because you play a "easier" class? and i say easier but it's subjective, something easier for me, will be difficult for another one.
however, a job that ask to keep more buff up, that have more complicate mechanic must be rewarding to play. or people will simply switch onto the "easier" job for get instant reward is in human nature.

naturally we can say all of this is pointless talk since it's true you can technically complete every challenge with every jobs... but will recquire more "work".

on the jobs change, i did seen it coming that the change of the sam will be not enough and it's proved with the logs. don't get me wrong, for me SAM is not that hard, but that because i did train a lot a new player will not find it simple. but without that, for a jobs that have 0 party buff and only his damage for him... why bring a sam when you can bring a reaper or a monk... or ninja and dragoon with them party buff.
balance is something complicate, true, but people must'nt forget the human nature, and this one is always to take the easier way and the fastest. in this case the change of the sam was clumsy, why i say this? with Meikyô Shisui we don't use most of the skill that was buffed and namikiri is something used every 2 minutes. in a sense this change is... almost useless. but well... i guess sam will have a time where it will be the new monk 2.0

A lot of people don’t like simplicity. It’s actually the reason a lot of people don’t like the new summoner. Balancing around complexity is bad game design. You either completely balance around it, meaning the most complex job is the best without question, or you don’t balance around it at all.

Mobility only really helps during progression. Ask any black mage or red mage. Once they’ve learned a fight, that lack of mobility stops being a hindrance.

Regardless of people saying that SMN is a ranged physical, it’s not coded that way. Summoner takes up a caster slot. You don’t get the party bonus if you don’t have a mch, dnc, or brd. DNC has low personal damage, but it brings up the damage of the party by a large amount.

[LilyPendragon]

Ask any black mage or red mage. Once they’ve learned a fight, that lack of mobility stops being a hindrance.

It stops being a hindrance, but unlike pRanged, it's always a consideration. I have to actively use things to be able to move for mechanics, a pRanged doesn't, they just move. You have to know what cooldowns to use for where to be able to maintain uptime, which again, a pRanged doesn't. There's a difference between actively having to gain mobility versus just having free mobility at all times forever.

[Keiisuke]

MCH is still stuck in this weird spot after all these years because the community keep having barriers like the mobility tax, or ease of use tax in their mind.
People play the job they love. I could say the same things, why should I play MCH when I don't have utilities and bring less DPS to the raid ? MCH is the worst of all the physical ranged right now but i'm still playing it. I could switch to bard or dancer since it share the same gear but i'm not doing it.

MCH is designed as a selfish DPS with no party utility like the SAM and the BLM, so why the job should do far less than them ?

I mean, more and more bosses have no positionnals at all, so that plus true north stacks, positionnal is not an issue anymore (and I truelly think that one day, positionnals will completly be removed from the game).
Most of the melees have a dash/backdash, and have a range weaponskill that doesnt break combo anymore while having an ok potency so uptime become less and less a problem (and I don't even speak about all the "uptime" strats that you can see around in the game).
As for the BLM, you can literally TP to someone, you have many insta-casts and you can literally take a sip of coffee during 2 Fire spell. You are more mobile than never before.

I understand that as a physical ranged DPS, we have a bit less things to consider like you say, but does that explain this gargantuesque gap in the dps output ?

[CKNovel]

1: DPS balance and why
2: I hate viable arguments
3: Different level of players

1:Easy answer. Jobs with healing shouldn't be above jobs with no healing.
It would be fine for MCH to be dead last if it had plentyful of mitigation tools.

Indirectly, healing is a DPS increase. The less healers needs to casts, the more they can rely on their oGCD to heal.
The more they can DPS.

2: In Early week, if someone die you reset.
If you aim for early weeks it's obvious you get food/pentamelding/pots. Otherwise what are you even doing here in early kills?

If you still wants to use the job difficulty argument, you should first know that you will never miss more than 10% uptime.
SQEX only reduced the value of positionnals and just gave more and more instant cast.
Today, as a caster or melee, if you fall being a ranged you are doing something wrong, you are the problem, not the ranged.

Skill > Job Choice, sure.... Only and only if the jobs are balanced.
Wanna know what the job distribution for first week is like?
80~90% BRD.
1~2% PLD.
15~25% RPR.

DRK could AFK a whole minute and still deal more damage than PLD in 6.05.
"Skill" couldn't fill the gap.

3: Depends on people, some plays for years but only craft.
And this is out of topic anyway.

Mobility only really helps during progression. Ask any black mage or red mage. Once they’ve learned a fight, that lack of mobility stops being a hindrance.

I'd add that melee uptime and learning a fight to optimize casting is often done during progress.
Most of the time you are either at melee ranged or standing behind the boss.

It doesn't helps that ultimate content alternate between downtime with mechanics and uptime with nothing but raidwide/tank busters.

[LilyPendragon]

As for the BLM, you can literally TP to someone, you have many insta-casts and you can literally take a sip of coffee during 2 Fire spell. You are more mobile than never before.

There is a pretty massive gap between 'having to use active abilities to mitigate poor mobility' and 'can literally do their entire rotation jumping if they so desire.' i.e the difference in BLM 'mobility' and MCH mobility.

I'll reiterate what I said before:

The MCH buffs were insufficient; but they shouldn't be in the same weight class as SAM and BLM when they have so few considerations for optimised play in comparison. Look at a bottom percentile BLM vs a top percentile BLM. Now do the same for MCH. There is less skill expression available to Machinists, and if Square were to change that so Machinist actually had a skill ceiling equal to that of BLM, I'd be all up for them punching in the same weight class, but as it stands it's just not the case. At the moment, a bad Black Mage is a far worse hinderance than a bad Machinist, but Black Mage scales with player skill a lot more than Machinist does.

[CKNovel]

There is a pretty massive gap between 'having to use active abilities to mitigate poor mobility' and 'can literally do their entire rotation jumping if they so desire.' i.e the difference in BLM 'mobility' and MCH mobility.

I'd agree if we were talking about HW BLM.
If with all the mobility tool you struggle to complete mechanics and DPS, it's a "you" problem.
Mobility is a puzzle you need to figure to improve your DPS. The ranged role is simply denied this puzzle, but it should'nt be denied the DPS/Utility as well.

Ranged mobility is only useful to run in circles in front of the boss. Sure you may lose 5 GCDs with casts/melee but those won't make up for the discrepancy.

Again:
The whole E8S tier was the most mobile tier XIV ever saw.
Technically it should've been the ranged shining and guess who was actually shining?
The casters. SMN, BLM and RDM steamrolled E8S.

The advantage is not being mobile, it's about being able to hit the boss from where you want.

[Noraiga]

I was waiting for real buff who make sense, same for MNK because for the DPS output by mnk it's not busy at all then i thought they will FINALLY do something about anatman and SSS but nope
we got a straight up buff potency which make NO DAMN SENSE.

This patch is really a 50/50 but i'm still watching as a wtf patch.