Current top 100th percentile on P1S since 6.08 buffs

[zcrash970]

People are way too obsessed with these numbers. Well here's my take:



2: Machinist and Summoner are much easier to pull good numbers on compared to melee or Black Mage. Many of the pugs I've been in have had SMNs at or near the top compared to others because they're so easy, saying they're not worth bringing to a group because the best SMN in the world isn't pulling numbers as high as the best Monk is the world is beyond ridiculous - so long as they're not dying SMNs will be more consistently good.

While I agree somewhat, the problem is even if you have a great smn or mch and a severally under performing reaper or BLM, they will still do more damage that the higher performing player.

Also MCH is not fine. Based on earlier numbers, they are the weakest job in the game right now and brings no utility

[Grimoire-M]

Machinist, Red Mage and Bard need to be higher. Red Mage and Bard by a smidge (Buff something in Red Mage's burst combo or oGCDs and fix Ballad's repertoire bonus), Machinist by a lot (Buff their filler combo). Red Mage and Machinist should be closer to Ninja than the rest with Bard under them at roughly the spot Red Mage is at now. Samurai should still be ahead of Monk, who just needs their buff reverted with no other changes. I might say knock a minor peg off of Technical Finish (not a full revert of the buff, but closer to where it started than where the buff put it) on Dancer just to put them closer to Summoner, but the rest of their buffs are good and it doesn't need to be tweaked further.

All in all it's better than before but intentionally ignores some problems. I wasn't expecting gameplay changes till 6.1 because that's not how SE does things, but these numbers are still off. We'll see if the gameplay changes screw with it.

Also no healer changes sucks and RIP dragoon tether. I'll miss actually enjoying Experts with them.

[Kolsykol]

Honestly for top players I think this is fine for BLM at least but SAM should be higher and up there too.
BLM is meant to scale really high with player skill that's how it has always been.

[smol_cofe]

is judging potency changes by normal mode raids reasonable?

[Sequora]

Machinist, Red Mage and Bard need to be higher. Red Mage and Bard by a smidge (Buff something in Red Mage's burst combo or oGCDs and fix Ballad's repertoire bonus), Machinist by a lot (Buff their filler combo). Red Mage and Machinist should be closer to Ninja than the rest with Bard under them at roughly the spot Red Mage is at now. Samurai should still be ahead of Monk, who just needs their buff reverted with no other changes. I might say knock a minor peg off of Technical Finish (not a full revert of the buff, but closer to where it started than where the buff put it) on Dancer just to put them closer to Summoner, but the rest of their buffs are good and it doesn't need to be tweaked further.

All in all it's better than before but intentionally ignores some problems. I wasn't expecting gameplay changes till 6.1 because that's not how SE does things, but these numbers are still off. We'll see if the gameplay changes screw with it.

Also no healer changes sucks and RIP dragoon tether. I'll miss actually enjoying Experts with them.

DNC MCH and brd all do an amount of damage relative to their damage party buffs.

Why bother taking a SMN with your philosophy? A more mobile less useful red mage? Less damage,less utility?

[Grimoire-M]

DNC MCH and brd all do an amount of damage relative to their damage party buffs.

Why bother taking a SMN with your philosophy? A more mobile less useful red mage? Less damage,less utility?

As mobile as the other ranged DPS. Has a Raise and two strong HoTs at a consistent window. AoE healing on DPS has broken more content in the past than anything Magic Barrier will ever provide and therefore needs to be taxed accordingly. Embolden is strictly worse than Searing Light. Addle is better than Troubadour and its equivalents. Red Mage gets more damage because it has a real rotation with strict positional requirements and less flexibility than BLM, but it's utility knocks it into the middle of the pack. Summoner's specific mobility and utility edges over it and lack of difficulty in its rotation specifically put it in the bottom compared to every other DPS. If you don't like that don't play the job. I'm simply giving credit where it's due.

[Aikaal]

How about difficulty of maintaining uptime?

Strategies are designed to keep uptime. There are strats on P3S designed for BLM not to move. You'd rather use Triple Cast for your burst window. If you can find a way, you should aim for it. I recall in E3S on my Paladin, I would stay and eat the mechanic and gain a vuln stack because I could. That was my uptime strat. The thing people tend to forget is group makes sure melee DPS just don't think about mechanic and keep on slapping damn boss ass cheeks. Same for BLM, people make sure they don't have to do much for mechanics when available.

As mobile as the other ranged DPS. Has a Raise and two strong HoTs at a consistent window. AoE healing on DPS has broken more content in the past than anything Magic Barrier will ever provide and therefore needs to be taxed accordingly. Embolden is strictly worse than Searing Light. Addle is better than Troubadour and its equivalents. Red Mage gets more damage because it has a real rotation with strict positional requirements and less flexibility than BLM, but it's utility knocks it into the middle of the pack. Summoner's specific mobility and utility edges over it and lack of difficulty in its rotation specifically put it in the bottom compared to every other DPS. If you don't like that don't play the job. I'm simply giving credit where it's due.

I don't even know why you're specifically pointing RDM vs SMN when it's not even the point of the post.

Mobility has no value for damage;
- People design strats to avoid movement and uptime lost.
- Mobility provide not damage bonus or you'd see a lot more Physical Ranged DPS.
- Ranged Physical got gutted in Stormblood from losing Disembowl Piercing Debuff and they've been been properly compensated.
- Of all casters, SMN is the one losing the most in P2S and P4S because of their rotation forcing them to desync Bahamut/Phoenix with buff windows. The only work around is a huge amount of Spell Speed. That means SMN requires multiple BiS which, no other job requires.

Maybe you hate SMN now, you don't play SMN now. You don't even know the struggles of the job on current content and you're not even playing a Caster right now so your input doesn't really have any weight.

RDM > SMN for raise
RDM > SMN for utility (half my healing is overheal because, guess what, like Searing Light, my healing is restricted and I have time frames to use it)
RDM > SMN for damage support (Embolden > Searing Light, 5% 20s buff > 3% 30s buff because all jobs are done with the burst after 20s)
RDM = SMN for damage. That seems to be about the only thing SMN has as equal to RDM.

Now, you're asking a RDM buff. I'm sorry but... did you see how people reacted with the MNK buff? It was very minor but a buff is a buff.

[silentwindfr]

Job complexity shouldn’t dictate damage.

ok here a question simple, we are all human, if you have two road for reach your goal, one is hard and take more time to reach it, while one is shorter and easier to use, which one you will use? human per nature will choose the easier path.
some reminder about stuff people tend to forget, while the 2.x period we did get some really massive trouble people tend to forget when people was saying no melee for raid because it's harder for them? or people saying no monk because no party buff?

finally, i will change your sentence into this: being easy mustn't give the same reward. because right now a looooooot of people tend to say we don't want difficulty to reward a better dps, but is that because you play a "easier" class? and i say easier but it's subjective, something easier for me, will be difficult for another one.
however, a job that ask to keep more buff up, that have more complicate mechanic must be rewarding to play. or people will simply switch onto the "easier" job for get instant reward is in human nature.

naturally we can say all of this is pointless talk since it's true you can technically complete every challenge with every jobs... but will recquire more "work".

on the jobs change, i did seen it coming that the change of the sam will be not enough and it's proved with the logs. don't get me wrong, for me SAM is not that hard, but that because i did train a lot a new player will not find it simple. but without that, for a jobs that have 0 party buff and only his damage for him... why bring a sam when you can bring a reaper or a monk... or ninja and dragoon with them party buff.
balance is something complicate, true, but people must'nt forget the human nature, and this one is always to take the easier way and the fastest. in this case the change of the sam was clumsy, why i say this? with Meikyô Shisui we don't use most of the skill that was buffed and namikiri is something used every 2 minutes. in a sense this change is... almost useless. but well... i guess sam will have a time where it will be the new monk 2.0

[Tulzscha]

Mobility has no value for damage;
- People design strats to avoid movement and uptime lost.
- Mobility provide not damage bonus or you'd see a lot more Physical Ranged DPS.

That's not an absolute, people also design strats for ease of execution. At higher skill levels things like uptime are better handled but jobs shouldn't be balanced around the best players (nor the worst). Rdps also doesn't have to worry about positionals or target swapping for adds or bosses moving for whatever reason.

If you take all of that into consideration and say a melee could get (random numbers here) 6-8k depending how good they and their group are but ranged physical will almost always get 7k regardless, that's not meaningless until everyone's at a high enough skill level, which will also take time with new encounters. At that point you could say ranged falls behind but when everyone's that good does it even matter? As for how it all maths out in reality it doesn't look good in the parses but that's also incomplete information. Wonder if Yoship ever addressed this in an interview.

[CKNovel]

1:How about difficulty of maintaining uptime?

2:Yeah things don't work like that in the real world. Applying that analogy to the game, if you care that much about killing a boss a few seconds faster vs playing a job you enjoy then by all means feel free to switch every balance patch. It's never going to be perfect, there's always going to be someone on top and on bottom. But yes, it works.

3:OP posted an example of the best players in the world, you're listing an example of some of the worst. There's a whoooole lot of people in between those two examples and a lot of them don't even log, the average player is somewhere in there and that's probably what they're balancing around (I would guess). You can't balance for 100th percentile parses and expect everyone to play at ultra top tier.

1: This argument is out of date.
In the whole ShB, only E8S had mechanics where it was difficult or impossible to maintain. Yet ranged were still outshined in content they should've been shining.
In P1S and P2S you can easily maintain 95%+ uptime. P3S only has 1 mechanic where you can't have full uptime, others mechanics are insanely easy to elaborate uptime strats.
P4S, you will have to cast a few ranged attack but even casting 20 will not put you behind your ranged.

If you are behind your ranged, you either died, don't know your rotation or are outgeared. Let the ranged be rewarded for their loot and effort.

2: Yes there is a first and a last.
But the last is a job that only brings DPS to the group. Imagine if a Medic in FPS had access to better guns than a Soldier?
In early weeks, where DPS actually matters, Job choice can decide wether you will clear the content or not.
In ultimate, it can also decide if you are going to skip annoying mechanics or not. And skipping annoying mechanics can also mean more melee uptime, the irony.

3: Yes, it's too early for consistent data from "that website".
But we have maths wizard in the community. In each patch they correctly calculated the impact of buffs. I don't see why we shouldn't trust them now.
But² I've checked 70, 80, 90 percentile so far those early results are the predicted result.

It remains a bit early as everyone is still gearing themselves, which will increase the rDPS of job that provides buffs.

That's not an absolute, people also design strats for ease of execution. At higher skill levels things like uptime are better handled but jobs shouldn't be balanced around the best players (nor the worst). Rdps also doesn't have to worry about positionals or target swapping for adds or bosses moving for whatever reason.

I'd agree for a solo game you're supposed to play once, twice, maybe thrice. You don't balance or patch games around speedrunners, right?
XIV problem is that the game is about repeating content. You don't play Sekiro for months but you play XIV for years.
That's where the argument can't stand, obviously players in the game for years can easily reach the skill ceiling.

Also, positionnals... You know their values, right?
You know reaper have a grand total of 2 positionnals? You know that MNK saw many positionals removed? You know the existence of true north?
It's time to stop pretending melee uptime is hard when bosses with full hitbox with the size of half the arena exist.

It's a "you" problem and a ceiling you must reach yourself, not impose on others.
It's harder to play DRK/GNB than it is to play RPR.

Also no healer changes sucks and RIP dragoon tether. I'll miss actually enjoying Experts with them.

I will miss it as well, the red link of friendship.