Dark Knight Megathread

[RyuDragnier]

... do you understand how toxic this would be in any other context? Keeping a list of grievances dating back years and claiming they hate you for it, despite the fact that they can't change the past and you wouldn't clear that list if DRK was in a good spot like it was most of last expansion, and just pulling it out any time you don't get your way? The insinuation of their incompetence despite still forking out money for them?

Like, go ahead and be disappointed, but there's a certain limit to what's healthy before I have to wonder why you're still here if you have so much pent up anger about it and venom towards the devs.

You do know how many years the DRK playerbase has been waiting for them to finally have a vision for the job, right? They haven't had one since HW, when the job had come out. It had identity, it had kit synergy, it had sustain, it had mitigation. Now look at it, they've stripped EVERYTHING the job had away from it. It no longer has any kind of job identity, the kit has almost no synergy with itself, we have no sustain, we have horrible mitigation. Why on earth would you think any DRK who has played since HW would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt? If they had cared enough to just give us healing potency increases on the two pitiful heals we had, it'd at least give us hope that they were planning on fixing and bringing back the sustain at the very least.

As for why I'm still here, it's because like every other HW DRK player who still frequents here and posts, I want this job to be better. We've seen it at its best, we're currently seeing it at its worst. There are grounds for SE reworking jobs, they've already done it with MCH/BRD going into SB and with MNK and SMN currently. What I currently want is SE to give us a sign that they understand that DRK needs help. I also want for YOU to understand we're all incredibly tired of this nonsense, frustrated, and angry because we've dealt with this song and dance for years. If SE wants us to give them the benefit of the doubt, the ball is in their court, we gave them it for years and we won't get fooled again.

[OdinelStarrei]

It is that I'm not taking it personally and claiming they've "kicked us in the face over and over again"?

It's not about "optimism" versus realism, because you've already gone past what is realistic.

Okay, fair point. Pulling it back a bit.

I would be more inclined to be amicable if they at least would open a line of communication. When interviews happen, DRK should be mentioned. During the live letter, DRK should probably be mentioned on air. With this amount of discontent, even if a lot of it is totally unwarranted, I think it would do a lot to relieve some of the pressure. It's true that I personally have taken the lack of action as a total disregard of the job, because anything else doesn't make much sense from a customer standpoint. If there's more to it, I'm more than willing to listen, but they have to talk first.

[MagiusNecros]

It is that I'm not taking it personally and claiming they've "kicked us in the face over and over again"?

It's not about "optimism" versus realism, because you've already gone past what is realistic.

Except you are taking it personally. If it wasn't personal wouldn't you not move on with your day? Instead of arguing with salty players such as myself and the Dark Knight mob?

The reality is that DRK is a raid tank and is primarily about having the highest personal DPS and suffers from poor defensives which in the long term is poor tank design.

Mayhap it's better to just let disgruntled DRKs and Vanilla HW players have their moment?

To say nothing doesn't really help DRK. Being vocal gives DRK's an outlet even if it falls on deaf ears.

In the long term I only really see players shifting to the Axe, Gunblade or the Scythe in the long term.

If DRKs complain and foam at the mouth it isn't because we hate the Devs it's because they love the job and want what's best for the job. And revolving around TBN and a 15 second burst every 2 minutes ain't it chief.

[Absimiliard]

At this point I'm beginning to suspect that "what's best for the job" might have a lot in common with the ending of Old Yeller. It seems to be slowly succumbing to the same fate it did in FFXI. It excels at a single thing, but it pays for its one trick by sucking utterly at pretty much everything else and being the only tank healers have to hand hold. It's been like this ever since they destroyed Abyssal Drain, and each successive expansion seems to make it a little worse.

[Archwizard]

I would be more inclined to be amicable if they at least would open a line of communication. When interviews happen, DRK should be mentioned. During the live letter, DRK should probably be mentioned on air. With this amount of discontent, even if a lot of it is totally unwarranted, I think it would do a lot to relieve some of the pressure. It's true that I personally have taken the lack of action as a total disregard of the job, because anything else doesn't make much sense from a customer standpoint. If there's more to it, I'm more than willing to listen, but they have to talk first.

And that's valid, and all they can ask.

Evidently, they thought DRK was in a good place mechanically by the end of ShB, which is why they left it largely untouched for EW. If I had to guess, they probably thought the big tanking changes they were making would bring other on-demands up to the level of TBN, but either overshot, or overestimated TBN.

The way I see it, 6.1 will be their first chance to make big passes with the feedback they've received since Endwalker launched and the playerbase has gotten their hands on it. Dark Knight has been a hot button issue for both EN and JP forums, pretty much at the forefront of discussions for tanking and healing (aside from "WAR too stronk"), especially with them paying attention to feedback given by their new Sages... who universally agree DRK sucks to heal and that LD is just a Doom clock, by a massive margin next to other tanks who got glaringly massive improvements.

So, we wait for them to announce class changes in the live letter.

Except you are taking it personally. If it wasn't personal wouldn't you not move on with your day? Instead of arguing with salty players such as myself and the Dark Knight mob?

Cuz you're all kinda filling up a thread I was having otherwise constructive conversations in, and a huge stink would sidetrack that.

Half of you're bringing up here is something we've already been discussing. I just ain't mad that we didn't get it tonight, because I had zero expectation we would.

The other half, including the bit I quoted, is a lot of projection. I can't help ya with that.

[Shurrikhan]

When a patch we were explicitly told would only hold offensive potency buffs for Paladin and under-performing DPS doesn't include design adjustments for healers:

Healers were lambasted.

That's not to say DRK shouldn't have at least gotten some basic number tweaks as a tide-over, since such certainly wouldn't step on the toes of future adjustments, but there's little need for hyperbolic reaction. If you want to demand an answer to why a big 6.1 patch, complete with significant rehauls, hasn't arrived yet, feel free, but in the context of this patch itself, not getting something wildly outside the stated scope is hardly "lambasting."

You do know how many years the DRK playerbase has been waiting for them to finally have a vision for the job, right? They haven't had one since HW, when the job had come out. It had identity, it had kit synergy, it had sustain, it had mitigation.

HW DRK had middling mitigation except in fights that could make use of Dark Mind. Dark Dance was a whopping 5% mitigation at most without DA, at which point, like DA-DP, it had antisynergy with DRK's procs. Its sustain was highly MP gated (DA-AD taking up a huge chunk of MP) in a time where MP generation was, apart from BP, limited to single-target actions.

It had identity, but clearly one of happenstance more than intent. And the StB changes to that core (removed MP drain, more DA, since DA was "cool") came direct from feedback to HW DRK. The majority of ShB changes to what remained of the core kit, too (DA is just raw potency anyways, so let's stop having a seizure every other GCD and just use it on potency), came from very often given critiques here on the forums.

Is the problem then that they let us direct their vision of the job too much? That they took the loudest soundbites of player feedback at face value for two expansions only to have that blow up on them (for shallowness of observation / lack of awareness, sure, but just the same)? What visions for the job, if they were to "finally have" one, would we really accept, I wonder? It seems odd to simply "wait for" the devs to grasp a vision for the job all the while having no faith that any positive changes could occur.

There are grounds for SE reworking jobs, they've already done it with MCH/BRD going into SB and with MNK and SMN currently.

You realize MCH and SMN each got gutted even harder than DRK, right? BRD and MNK has survived decently to most, but MCH is not even recognizable in terms of complexity, flow, or gameplay style and EW SMN is practically a bait-and-switch. If you want anything like a HW DRK, these are the examples of what to steer clear of, not to be used as precedents for favorable attention.

Except you are taking it personally. If it wasn't personal wouldn't you not move on with your day? Instead of arguing with salty players such as myself and the Dark Knight mob?

Finding a warrant disproportionate, contextually unjustified, or otherwise unhelpful or distracting, and stating as much, does not require a deep-seated personal investment.

Come 6.1 if DRK stays effectively the same are you going to have Copium for 6.5? 7.0? 8.0?

The likes of 'There's nothing to be gained by loudly rehashed group grief-counseling, let alone such as would drown outgoing productive discussion about the identities and capacities we'd actually want to see on DRK.' =/= copium.

Putting all else in hide block to reduce the amount of visible off-topicness in play. I've contributed more than enough to that already.

[MagiusNecros]

Come 6.1 if DRK stays effectively the same are you going to have Copium for 6.5? 7.0? 8.0?

I will not be shocked if they buff Holmgang again.

DRK community: Can you at least do something with Blood Weapon?
Yoshi P: Aw shit better buff Holmgang
DRK community: Q_Q Living Dead?
Yoshi: Buffs Tomahawk
DRK community: X_X

[Archwizard]

Come 6.1 if DRK stays effectively the same are you going to have Copium for 6.5? 7.0? 8.0?

No, I would be upset too after 6.1, considering it's their first opportunity to address DRK in a significant manner that they would be passing up.
Considering the sheer amount of feedback from both the tanking sphere as a whole and healers, particularly Sages, on both sides of the language divide specifically pointing out DRK at this exact moment, it would be glaring if they didn't mention DRK from here-on.

But I also... would just drop the job if they didn't do anything for it. I wouldn't drag around a bloated corpse just on the off-chance I ran into Yoshi-P on the street just so I could hold it up and shame him.

[RyuDragnier]

But I also... would just drop the job if they didn't do anything for it. I wouldn't drag around a bloated corpse just on the off-chance I ran into Yoshi-P on the street just so I could hold it up and shame him.

Oh I don't blame you. I dropped it in SB, picked it up again in ShB, and come announcements for 6.1, I will drop it again unless changes are announced. I will however mark it mentally as "just another reminder of how DRK is unloved by the devs".

[MagiusNecros]

They really need a bit more transparency on where they are going with jobs. Not just DRK. Liveletters detailing where they want each class to go in the future would be a big step forward IMO. Some form of communication with players would be nice.

It would be something. Something to illustrate "this is what we are doing and why we are doing it".